Live data from Hacker News

The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

dreamsongs.com

301–310 of 351 posts

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#301
post #288

I have a theory that the worse is better approach begets an environment where the worse is better approach is better. At least hypothetically, I think there's an approach which is not "the right thing" or "worse is better" but rather more like "the right foundations". Most interface complexity in my experience seems to be inherited from underlying interface complexity, and it takes a lot of work to fix that underlyin…

I have a question for this premise. How would you design a network interface using your right foundations model? I'm not talking about HTML or whatnot. I have some sort of medium, copper, fiber whatever and I would like to send 10 bytes to the other side of it. What is the right foundations that would lead to an implementation which isn't overly complex.

Unfortunately, I am not a network engineer. So I don't know how I would approach this problem other than to try to make sure that the resulting hardware is easy to deal with from firmware and software.

I have worked with hardware directly and there is something inherently simple about some hardware APIs versus others.

What's more, the complexity doesn't entirely relate to the underlying hardware or protocol complexity.

The issue is, though, that reality is complicated. This is where the right foundations are important. It's not necessarily that the right foundations themselves have simple internals, but that the right foundations successfully tame the complexity of reality.

The best place to work on developing the right foundations is therefore precisely at such interfaces between the real world and the software world.

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#302
post #287

I have a theory that the worse is better approach begets an environment where the worse is better approach is better. At least hypothetically, I think there's an approach which is not "the right thing" or "worse is better" but rather more like "the right foundations". Most interface complexity in my experience seems to be inherited from underlying interface complexity, and it takes a lot of work to fix that underlyin…

I think there's a lot of truth to this. It reminds me of an idea in economics about the "second-best". From the wikipedia page: "In welfare economics, the theory of the second best concerns the situation when one or more optimality conditions cannot be satisfied. The economists Richard Lipsey and Kelvin Lancaster showed in 1956 that if one optimality condition in an economic model cannot be satisfied, it is possible…

I hate intervention but I like analysis. Good insights there, I did not know about this theory.

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#303
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the years I've developed what I call the "lefthanded scissors" analogy: people assume that everyone's mind is wired the same way and that all good programmers are good in the same way and think in the same way, but what if that's not true? What if different people have a predisposition (like lefthandedness) to prefer different tools? Then a righthanded person picks up the lefthanded scissors and deems them weird…

I would say the analogy fails because it's not about discomfort or weirdness (or taste); left-handed scissors just don't work if you try to use them right-handed. But right-handed scissors don't work if you try to use them left-handed either. So it's not about taste or preference, left handed people learn how to use right-handed scissors, but they can also use left handed scissors in a way that a right-handed person…

As a lefty who has used right-handed scissors in many situations all my life, it isn't that simple. I can cut with right-handed scissors. It requires changing the way I use them in a way that is a bit weird and unnatural, but it works.

It's very much about what is comfortable for people.

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#304
post #276
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Expedient" is a common (or at least not rare) English word that means something like "practical and effective even if not directly attending to higher or deeper considerations." For example, if two students in a class are having frequent confrontations that bring learning in the class to a halt, and attempts by teachers and counselors to address their conflict directly haven't been effective, the expedient solution…

non-native speaker here > "Expedient" is a common (or at least not rare) English word that means something like "practical and effective even if not directly attending to higher or deeper considerations." I was not aware of the word "Expedient" before. From your example I conclude, that it has the same meaning as "pragmatic", i.e. if I sed i/expedient/pragmatic/g then your comment still makes perfect sense to me. A q…

"Pragmatic" connotes a choice that achieves a goal by practical means, possibly sacrificing some desirable features that are challenging to achieve.

"Expedient" connotes a choice that achieves a goal quickly and conveniently, possibly by sacrificing some important but difficult features, and incurring some undesirable costs or consequences.

So they're similar, but not identical. A pragmatic choice might be improved when you can afford it. An expedient choice will probably require some cleanup afterward.

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#305
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Expedient" is a common (or at least not rare) English word that means something like "practical and effective even if not directly attending to higher or deeper considerations." For example, if two students in a class are having frequent confrontations that bring learning in the class to a halt, and attempts by teachers and counselors to address their conflict directly haven't been effective, the expedient solution…

> if we solve climate change with geoengineering instead of by addressing thoughtless consumerism, corporate impunity, and lack of international accountability, many people would feel frustrated or let down If some people feel frustrated or let down because we achieve a literal miracle (by today's technology standards) that saves millions of lives I'm willing to call them mentally unhinged.

Not unhinged, just human. There's even a logic to their views: when different approaches to a problem are on different sides of a line of political polarization, people see them as competing, and see the success of one as tending to invalidate the other. I've heard/read politically minded people on either end of the spectrum talk about global warming as a challenge that is going to discredit the other side, by which they mean that the success of their preferred approach will discredit other approaches. And I think there's a lot of truth to that, because of how most human beings see things. Thinking from an engineering mindset, we see different ways of solving a problem as complementary rather than mutually exclusive, and to us it's common sense to 1) pursue both of them simultaneously given the high stakes and uncertainty of success, and 2) continue to improve our understanding of different approaches so we can apply them all effectively in the future in situations that call for them. But thinking from an engineering mindset is not normal. That's not how most people see things. I think the way most people see things could be described as a zero-sum competition for mindshare.

You can even see the tendency to see complementary approaches as competing at work in smaller divisions between people who are mostly politically aligned. For example, when one group wants to take immediate direct action to ameliorate a problem and another group wants to focus on longer-term fundamental solutions, they might fight bitterly and badmouth each other's approaches if they feel they are competing for a finite pool of resources such as funding, political backing, or public attention.

For a more concrete example, think of how the issues facing Black Americans recently came to the forefront of public consciousness, books like Between the World and Me and Stamped from the Beginning were shaping the public conversation, and in this context, some people tried to harness that energy to get the public interested in social class as well. When they tried to inject class into the conversation, they often encountered pushback from people who were like, "Hey, the way the public is paying attention to the Black American experience is really special and amazing right now. Let's focus on maintaining this momentum. Save class consciousness for another day." It's not that the majority of people on the left disagreed about class being an important perspective for gaining insight. They simply believed that the public's appetite to learn about a topic like racism was limited and fragile, and it would collapse faster if they tried to add another topic on top.

For a small minority of deeply ideological people, the feeling of competition was stark and intense. Some claimed that talk about class was an attempt to change the topic away from racism and put white people back in charge, and others claimed that identity politics was a class warfare weapon of distraction. But even people who valued both race and class as ways of understanding society perceived a competition for public attention.

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#306

I remember when I had a lesson about OSI layers, where the teacher has carefully described all the layers in detail and then said something like "most of this is not important, these layers don't really exist, TCP/IP got popular first because it's just much simpler than OSI was"

I enjoyed how we got taught the two models in the 1990s, and why one has the four layers you need and the "standard" has seven layers instead.

The professor asked "How many layers do you count?" - "Seven." - "How many members do you think the ISO/OSI committee had that designed it between them?" - [laughter] - "Seven.".

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#307
post #253

Ironically, the main feature that separates LISP from other modern languages is homoiconicity/macros(now that features like garbage collection are mainstream). And this leads to an easier implementation - parsing is easier(which is why code transformation via macros becomes easy).

A language which has that feature tends to get classified as a member of the Lisp family, even if it is horribly "unlispy" under the hood in its semantics.

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#308
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Protestors are protesting against things that they think are seriously wrong." OK, but that was sort-of my point. The more outrage, the less you need to really think about things. "err, yes, popular anti-slavery movements played an important role in the abolition of slavery" That is a chicken-and-egg question. Why did those mass movements only emerge at the time of the Industrial Revolution, and why did they emerge…

Everyone agrees that innocent people are being killed in the Israel-Palestine conflict and that this is an outrage. The disagreement is over exactly which people fall into this category and who is to blame. Acknowledging the horror and being outraged by it does not preclude thought, and it is ungenerous and inaccurate (and, indeed, cynical!) to characterize all protests about the conflict as thoughtless. Your take on…

Wars are brutal. No doubt about that. Nevertheless the disagreement that you mention ("which people fall into this category and who is to blame") seems to run so deep even here in the West, that I wonder if some of those protests wouldn't end up in an old-fashioned pogrom, if they weren't thoroughly policed from the outside.

Existence of more-or-less successful slave revolts across history doesn't really say much about viability of slavery as an economic institution. I don't think my take is pretty wild. The historic correlation between industrialization and abolition of slavery is rather strong, and while we can argue about whether it was causative, the hypothesis is at least plausible.

"Wild" would be if I attributed abolition of slavery to something that is clearly uncorrelated with it, so, say, the Milankovic cycle.

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#309
post #187

> Both early Unix and C compilers had simple structures, are easy to port, require few machine resources to run, and provide about 50%-80% of what you want from an operating system and programming language. > Unix and C are the ultimate computer viruses. The key argument behind worse-is-better is that an OS which is easy to implement will dominate the market in an ecosystem with many competing hardware standards. Ope…

Rust is not very popular in terms of number of users. It’s just over represented in online discussion.

Rust isn’t popular in web dev. It’s very popular in embedded.

Re: The Rise of Worse Is Better (1991)

#310
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JavaScript really illustrates the ultimate path-dependence of evolution. It got widely deployed during a boom time and therefore we are stuck with it forever.

We don’t have to be stuck with it forever. Start pushing WASM instead of React, etc. We can get there, but as technologists we have to make a concerted effort to do so.

The task of devising a novel application model for distributed Web applications is left to the reader as an exercise.

(It's not _just_ JavaScript that one should get rid off, but the abuse of the whole HTML+X set of stacks to implement interactive Web applications. There must be a better way than HTML/CGI, HTML/XML, Java applets etc.; WASM could be part of a solution, but not a solution in itself., as there should be standard UI elements etc.)

Post reply on HN