Being Raised by the Internet • Hacker News Board

Re: Being Raised by the Internet

#301

Post by throwanem » Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 4:07 PM UTC

shanusmagnus wrote: post #282

throwanem wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an "all the time" thing, but an aspect of how human relationships work. Like everything else there, it's contextual. In the context of public conversations and professional relationships, it's reasonable to consider there exists a threshold of intimacy beyond which further inquiry is improper. That shouldn't be a tremendously controversial statement, I hope. If there's a variation on it here, it is only that…

I wasn't trying to straw-man you and I agree with this more verbose phrasing. There's a vibe in some related comments that suggests that the proper way to manage your work affairs is to interact through some narrow "proper" API, in which nothing is sought nor proffered, that we exist to each other as callable services only. I try to generally be polite and treat people the way they seem to want, but I'm not going to…

> If I'm going to screw up, my defaults are set for errors of commission.

There have been times in my life where I said the same.

> I'm not going to live some meek life terrified that someone might take offense at my over-reach.

This isn't about that. This is about the wrong assumptions people make, much more easily than they realize, based on someone speaking knowledgeably of things very far beyond their own experience. Those assumptions easily motivate harmful behavior.

> There's a vibe in some related comments that suggests that the proper way to manage your work affairs is to interact through some narrow "proper" API, in which nothing is sought nor proffered, that we exist to each other as callable services only.

This is a cold and mechanistic view of the thing. I would rather say that some relationships more easily bear personal intimacy than others, and a basic aspect of human social competence lies in knowing which are which and avoiding the imposition of undue strain on those relationships that can't support it.

Re: Being Raised by the Internet

#302

Post by tadpole172 » Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 4:10 PM UTC

kragen wrote: post #278

tycho-newman wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Central control of money supply is a good thing. It helps avoid counterfeiters. It also helps make sure that we are broadly using the same means of exchange. Crypto moves control from the state to whoever runs the tech stack or has cheap enough power to mine crypto. Which in many places is still … checks notes … the state! Had Russia kept its reserves in Bitcoin or any other crypto, I am skeptical that the clever fin…

your argument about 'central control of money supply' is exactly backwards. the problem with 'counterfeiters', if we look only at the facts and avoid the question-begging derogatory term, is that they can print money while providing nothing in return; that's exactly what a mint printing paper money does, as do other entities with central control of the money supply. so, far from avoiding counterfeiters, it officially…

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-10-07/crypto-my...

They're not counterfeiting Bitcoin, just the means to prop up it's value. The big difference is the printing of Dollars is open and auditable.

Re: Being Raised by the Internet

#303

Post by throwanem » Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 4:17 PM UTC

dogleash wrote: post #291

yapyap wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can just… lie

Everyone already does. They just define lying such that the shielding and misrepresentation they do don't count. Nobody brings their "whole selves" to work, let alone their "selves." I had a lot of blue collar jobs as a teenager and still pick up the occasional shift at my uncle's shop for a call-out. They're guarded but somehow also make professional office life on the west coast rn look like a pearl clutching compe…

This one gets it.

Re: Being Raised by the Internet

#304

Post by didgetmaster » Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 4:26 PM UTC

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #150

kragen wrote: post #62

> I am certain they never intended to inspire a 12 year-old kid to find a better life. i can't speak for everyone, but as one of the people writing tutorials and faqs and helping people learn to do things with free software during the period miller is talking about, that is absolutely what i intended to do. and, from the number of people i knew who were excited to work on olpc, conectar igualdad , and huayra linux, i…

Likewise. The idea that I can elevate others like others have for me is exhilarating. My childhood was a little bleak in some ways like the author of this post. Not as bleak. But definitely lean times, sick parents, lots of time alone on the internet. Without that, who knows what would have happened to me. I don’t think but I know deeply that I can help others, both through my experience as a kid being helped and thr…

I don't consider the term 'self-taught' to mean that you didn't learn from others. Before the Internet, the local library was the primary source of information. People would go spend an enormous amount of time reading and browsing books written by other people to learn a skill.

I would consider those people to be self taught.

Re: Being Raised by the Internet

#305

Post by malfist » Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 4:33 PM UTC

ghodith wrote: post #298

amatecha wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the time I was old enough to work, I had recorded dozens of my own songs and made countless websites for fun. I made computer graphics and learned tons about computers and could fix them for all my friends and family. These were all forms of "work", valuable to others (to varying degrees), and I received zero payment for any of that. People like to do things, particularly things that benefit those they care about.…

Aside from the strong selection bias, you've also been raised in a culture that both works and values work. Now imagine you're a third generation UBI recipient. Your parents never worked, and you're surrounded by people who don't even "work" in the way which you describe it. At that point, I have very little hope, even for people predisposed to it like you.

>Your parents never worked, and you're surrounded by people who don't even "work"

I'm not sure that's a guaranteed future. Even today we offer subsistence living with welfare and food stamps, and nobody ever brags about not working because they're on the dole. Even if UBI is better than the current welfare system, it's not likely to be enough to support a middle class lifestyle. People will still work because they want to get ahead in life.

Re: Being Raised by the Internet

#306

Post by throwanem » Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 4:48 PM UTC

caseyy wrote: post #172

throwanem wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't even unreasonable as a cultural norm, although it is that those who most firmly enforce it also cherish silly habits like saying "bring your whole self to work." The expectation of not oversharing needs to be met by a commitment of not over- asking, but I suppose that's really too much to expect in an age so degraded that all the obligations across lines of social class are understood to run in only one di…

> although it is that those who most firmly enforce it also cherish silly habits like saying "bring your whole self to work." It is my understanding that about 50% of the cultural values companies prescribe to their teams are values they don't want to see adopted. Speaking up when something is wrong, open door policies, and work-life balance are the usual suspects. Continuous learning and development are also values…

> It is my understanding that about 50% of the cultural values companies prescribe to their teams are values they don't want to see adopted.

Sure, same here. What I don't understand is the idea that such pervasive mendacity and self-delusion should acceptably characterize a kind of culture that anyone is expected to regard as worthy of respect.

I realize it has a lot to do with the difference between organizational desiderata and organizational incentives, or put otherwise between asserted and revealed preference. Still, this is a problem in design susceptible to methods of analysis and adjustment recognizably derived as much from engineering as sociology, and it is not a novel field; I first learned of it from books published in the 1960s. The regression in ambient knowledge since then is remarkable, not to say shocking.

Re: Being Raised by the Internet

#307

Post by nuancebydefault » Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 5:54 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #140

throwanem wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I didn't say we have nothing that we could call a system, just that there's nothing remotely similar. There are some people that some of those don't fail, and one on that list with so pervasive a documented history of child sexual abuse among its caretakers that I'm honestly shocked if they still answer the phone - although if I recall correctly, Boys Town also has a history for giving kickbacks to judges in exch…

On further reflection, I'm sure I did. It was unjust and I'm sorry. It never occurred to me until a moment ago to wonder whether your question read to me like it did because it came from someone who maybe has never had to doubt that everyone can always know who to call to get out of a spot like that, on a number that will always be answered. Even now I can't bring myself to call that a conclusion rather than a surmis…

You don't have to feel sorry. I feel sorry that the situation in the US is what it is. That said, there's a lot for me to learn so I think asking questions and getting (sometimes harsh) answers is a way of learning that _sticks_ so to say.

Re: Being Raised by the Internet

#308

Post by xorcist » Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 6:22 PM UTC

tycho-newman wrote: post #272

kragen wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't agree, but that's probably just because you don't know what you're talking about, which is probably because you're here to do ideological battles instead of share knowledge (for evidence, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41687424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41685852 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41681866 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41678925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id…

Central control of money supply is a good thing. It helps avoid counterfeiters. It also helps make sure that we are broadly using the same means of exchange. Crypto moves control from the state to whoever runs the tech stack or has cheap enough power to mine crypto. Which in many places is still … checks notes … the state! Had Russia kept its reserves in Bitcoin or any other crypto, I am skeptical that the clever fin…

Whatever assets you keep with custodians abroad while invading a neighboring country might not be safe, irrespective if that asset is paper cash, gold, bitcoins, luxury yachts or anything else. That tells us nothing about the assets themselves, and only a little bit about how international law is practiced.

Re: Being Raised by the Internet

#309

Post by kragen » Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 7:14 PM UTC

xorcist wrote: post #308

tycho-newman wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Central control of money supply is a good thing. It helps avoid counterfeiters. It also helps make sure that we are broadly using the same means of exchange. Crypto moves control from the state to whoever runs the tech stack or has cheap enough power to mine crypto. Which in many places is still … checks notes … the state! Had Russia kept its reserves in Bitcoin or any other crypto, I am skeptical that the clever fin…

Whatever assets you keep with custodians abroad while invading a neighboring country might not be safe, irrespective if that asset is paper cash, gold, bitcoins, luxury yachts or anything else. That tells us nothing about the assets themselves, and only a little bit about how international law is practiced.

well, the specific reason bitcoin is better than gold for this purpose is that you don't have to keep it with custodians abroad in order to sell it easily. right now a more important reason that it's worse—unusably bad, in fact—is that its so-called market capitalization is too small, and the markets backing it too thinly traded, for the reserves of any country but a fairly small or poor one

that might change, but for the time being, central banks of the world are somewhat adrift in the wake of this unprecedented action

Re: Being Raised by the Internet

#310

Post by jcgrillo » Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 7:39 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #306

caseyy wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> although it is that those who most firmly enforce it also cherish silly habits like saying "bring your whole self to work." It is my understanding that about 50% of the cultural values companies prescribe to their teams are values they don't want to see adopted. Speaking up when something is wrong, open door policies, and work-life balance are the usual suspects. Continuous learning and development are also values…

> It is my understanding that about 50% of the cultural values companies prescribe to their teams are values they don't want to see adopted. Sure, same here. What I don't understand is the idea that such pervasive mendacity and self-delusion should acceptably characterize a kind of culture that anyone is expected to regard as worthy of respect. I realize it has a lot to do with the difference between organizational d…

I think it's thematically consistent with the lack of rigor in this field. I've been told countless times to deliver provably broken, bug-ridden shit on the premise that "it's better to deliver quickly and iterate". Similarly, I've gotten the management stink-eye from discovering (and proving by fixing it) something that was running totally broken in production for years. When nothing matters, that is when companies can get away with producing garbage, the way they go about producing it also degrades.

So I'd say the amount of attention and rigor applied to values and management principles is roughly commensurate with the amount of attention and rigor applied to product and engineering concerns. That is to say, just barely enough to get by. Yet somehow we print money...