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If English was written like Chinese (1999)

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Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Try have them be educated in a kana only system and then have them try read it. I can't, because there are no native speakers who learned that way, as I'm sure you know :D But there are many learners like that, and my experience in Japan is that anyone who doesn't learn kanji has a very low ceiling on their vocabulary, even if they use the language daily for decades. Because the reality is that it's hard to memoriz…

So... how do Koreans and Korean learners do it? Not to mention other languages that used to use Kanji but dropped it? You have to imagine the entire education system and everyone in it got changed to Kana only and Kanji was subsequently removed from modern literature from that point onward. That's the thought experiment. It was even tried successfully in places...

I don't know anything about Korean. It's a different language, and I'd imagine that some of the things I'm saying here don't apply to it, but that's a guess.

For thought experiments, you're assuming your consequent - obviously a society raised without kanji would get by without kanji, though I think the language would have to change somewhat. But for non-hypothetical people that exist now, I think the things you've been saying about kanji not making it easier to read Japanese just aren't true.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Try have them be educated in a kana only system and then have them try read it. I can't, because there are no native speakers who learned that way, as I'm sure you know :D But there are many learners like that, and my experience in Japan is that anyone who doesn't learn kanji has a very low ceiling on their vocabulary, even if they use the language daily for decades. Because the reality is that it's hard to memoriz…

So... how do Koreans and Korean learners do it? Not to mention other languages that used to use Kanji but dropped it? You have to imagine the entire education system and everyone in it got changed to Kana only and Kanji was subsequently removed from modern literature from that point onward. That's the thought experiment. It was even tried successfully in places...

Japanese learning materials for Japanese 5 and younger are hiragana only, and I remember finding it annoying.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japanese still uses Chinese characters for native vocabulary that is not derived from Chinese at all.

It does, but the loanwords from Chinese vastly outnumber those, so the influence of Chinese words on Japanese is pretty undeniable.

btw this is true for historical arguments, but actual size of workable shared vocabulary in common use is tiny - famously "手紙(hand paper)" means postal letters in Japanese, and toilet paper in Chinese.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does this tool in the language need to exist? The answer cannot be because Kanji make things easier to read, else you wouldn't need tools to help you read Kanji This just isn't true. Even most native JP speakers agree that kanji are oppressively hard to learn and remember, so if it were feasible to get by with kana alone, then at least some native speakers would do it in some contexts. But outside of language l…

So how are homophones in Japanese understood when expressed verbally? How much trouble do you actually have with them?

"Science" and "chemistry" are homophones in Japanese: We have special disambiguation reading for "chemistry", bake gaku, used only when misunderstanding is suspected.

There are numerous other examples. Those are all unnatural sounding, mostly industry/field specific, and not replacing the main homophone readings.

1: https://dailyportalz.jp/application/files/thumbnails/width64...

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#305
post #200

The article does a decent job of explaining of how Chinese characters work, but it falls short of explaining why. The reason why Chinese continues to use a logographic writing system is due to both tradition and practicality. English has grossly grouped together Chinese as one unified language, when in actuality it is not. In fact, many "dialects" are mutually unintelligible--one speaker cannot understand another spe…

> It's one of the reasons why subtitles are so prevalent in Chinese media I'd love to hear other people's take on this. I heard this many times when I lived in China, however living in Taiwan - people still always use subtitles. In Taiwan there are vanishingly few people that don't speak Mandarin, so it's not inserted for people that are bad at Mandarin. You will see that both in China and Taiwan people that are flue…

I'm nowhere close to being bilingual, and there are without doubt many factors involved in this, but I can think of a few fairly easily.

Chinese has relatively few possible syllable sounds compared to Western languages. There are about 400 possible initial-final combinations in Mandarin, and 4 tones they can be said in (5 if you include the neutral tone that can only appear at the end of a word), but not all combinations exist, and most estimates place it at about 1200 for Mandarin Chinese. This compares to about 15,000 odd for English, as a syllable has more flexibility in terms of initials, vowels and finals, and English does in fact have tones - even though we don't think of the tone as being syntactically significant, it is very hard to interpret someone if they deliberately change the pitch in unusual ways. But anyway, Chinese therefore has about 10% of the syllable range of English, but each syllable is in fact a "meaning unit" in its own right, whereas English will frequently use multiple syllables to express one concept, which makes it more redundant / less ambiguous. BTW, I say "meaning unit" because in older dialects of Chinese, each syllable was exactly a word and this was possible because there was more information in a syllable and so it was easier to disambiguate, but at some point things became confusing and Chinese began using pairs of "meaning units" to represent concepts - for instance "speech" in Mandarin is 说话 "shuo"+"hua" where the first word was an older verb for speaking and the second was an older noun for speech. Modern Chinese will still tend to revert back to the simpler forms if it's unambiguous and various grammar forms show that they still think of the words as being separate even if they are usually used together, e.g. in the positive+negative question form, 你喜不喜欢 were 喜欢 is normally considered a single word.

As a learner with a vocabulary of maybe 5000 words (compared to a native with maybe 10k+), I've already encountered a lot of homonyms and sometimes when you're watching a drama it's easier to look at the Chinese subtitles than trying to guess which word they meant. If you were having an actual conversation with someone, you could figure it out from context or ask for clarification, but that doesn't really work for one-way communication. One example: 这个合同是gong1zheng3的 "This contract is 'gongzheng'". Does this gongzheng mean 公正 (fair or equitable) or 公证 (notarised)? Just from speech alone, it's impossible to tell without further clarification or rewording, as both would be perfectly plausible.

In mainland China, there are a lot of people for whom Mandarin isn't their first language. Most people will speak it to varying levels of ability, sure, but regional dialects often have completely different words, pronunciations or even just different tones to Mandarin. In all those cases, being able to read along while listening helps comprehension. I'm not sure about Taiwan, but I'm sure there's a reasonable number of people who primarily speak Hokkien and only use Mandarin when they have to interact with people outside their community / town.

Finally, you also assume it's a choice... In most cases the subtitles are baked into the original broadcast (for TV). Back in the days of analogue TV when closed captions came along fairly late and required an expensive box, and so were only purchased by deaf people, subtitling on the broadcast was an easy way to ensure that everybody could get them, much as foreign TV shown in the West almost always has hard-coded subtitles. So for many people, it might not actually be an active choice - they might just only have sources that have hard-coded subtitles. I find it interesting that platforms where the content is intended for consumption by native Chinese speakers, e.g. TV dramas on youtube, the Chinese subs are usually hard-coded, but when they are sold to foreign platforms they usually don't have them. Personally, I find it quite frustrating that e.g. Viki doesn't often have Chinese subtitles and I want to know what exact phrase was just said, as then I usually have to find the show elsewhere e.g.on youtube.

There might also be the cases where the subtitles could be turned off, but they just don't bother. This might seem strange, I know I hate English subtitles on English shows, but many Chinese will watch TV shows with so many scrolling comments on top of the screen (often called "bullet text") that it's almost impossible to see what's underneath. Some of my Chinese friends actually watch most shows twice - once for the show, and once for all the comments. They probably aren't in the slightest bit concerned about the single line of subtitles at the bottom, especially if it makes watching a little bit easier.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#306
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the GP is referring to a different part of the Japanese numbering system: the two different numerals used with different counting words for 1-10; e.g. the fact that you say "muttsu no koto" [6つのこと] for "six things" but "rokko no retasu" [6個のレタス] for "six heads of lettuce". This is what they are comparing to the difference between "first" and "one" in English, which are obviously two different origin words for…

Ah so it's about onyomi and kunyomi (Chinese and Japanese reading)? It screws me up sometimes too but there's only two choices. What I heard lots of people cries about sometimes is the counter words, that's indeed so many, so I'm referring to that instead.

Yeah, measure words aren't really that strange a concept in English, it's just that we don't normally consider them. But we have e.g. "a pinch of salt", "a lashing of ginger beer" [1], "a lump of coal", "a slice of cake", "a piece of music", "a spit of rain", "a drop of water", "a bucket of water", "a sheet of paper", "a ream of paper", "a glass of beer", "a bottle of beer", "a sip/mouthful of beer", etc. The last few sets of words were to show an even more useful correspondence with Chinese - as they would be 一杯酒,一瓶酒, 一口酒 respectively, and suddenly they seem a lot more reasonable.

We also have a LOT of these for plurals and take great pride in knowing all the stupid ones - "a gaggle of geese", "a murder of crows", "a herd of cows", "a fleet of ships". These are all really just the same as the measure words in Chinese with many specialisations for large groups of specific things.

We also have plenty of measure words in English when we take something from the realm of uncountable to countable, as I showed in the examples above, and in many ways Chinese tends to have less weird single-use ones like "gaggle of geese", just a larger variety of the common ones. So there's a special word for "long thin things", "vertical long thing things", "flat things on a (mathematical) plane", "a lump", "a slice", "a vehicle", "a machine" as well as the fallback 个/個 when none of the more specific ones are appropriate. I think it's only because we generally don't use any measure word for small groups of countable nouns in English that we think it's somehow strange that other languages do.

There's also not so many counter words to be a problem. Sure, the absolute number is high (some say very precise numbers like 214, 232, etc, some people low ball it at 100, some say over 900 words if you count all the old obscure words), but in practice, about a dozen of them will cover almost all the cases you think are hard for English speakers. So, 个,条,只,支,本,件,张, 家,座,部,辆,头 are probably the most common ones that don't usually have an English translation, almost every other measure word would also require a measure word in English, e.g. 条=strip, 张=sheet, 些=few, 双=pair, 样=kind, 种=type, 头=head, 片=slice, 分/份=piece, 点=bit, 块=lump, etc.

As with most things about learning a new language, it's also important to embrace the differences - they give you a new insight into how other people think about things, and seeing when someone else's internal model for something differs to yours can help you better understand your own model as well as the new one you're learning.

[1] You'll understand this if you ever read The Famous Five!

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My next goal was Panzhihua, in Sichuan province. I hitched a ride (I can't remember where) with a group who invited me to a party. I was 21 and they were like late 20s. I graciously accepted their invitation, on the condition that they would take me back to the highway a few hours before sunset. After a fun few hours in the car, we arrive at the party destination- a beautiful plantation of rice paddies and fruit tree…

I hitch-hiked around Europe in the mid-nineties (when English wasn’t commonly spoken in Central/Eastern Europe) so I appreciated this story. I stayed in a hostel most nights (unless I was offered a place to stay) so my experience was nowhere near as adventurous as yours. Thanks for the anecdote.

Europe is a great place to start. I did the Camino de Santiago the year before going to China and that was what gave me the courage to go to China.

I'd love to hear an anecdote of your own!

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#308
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pinyin

Yes, anyone can sightread pinyin after an hour or two, but turning everything into it won't really help me learn to read Chinese as the language is actually used.

The only thing that realistically could would be to go to China or Taiwan and live there for a few years. No Google translate.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#309
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is Luxembourgish, which is basically the local dialect codified as one of the official languages of Luxembourg. It's otherwise perfectly understandable for people from adjacent parts of Belgium and Germany. But I guess the locals would see that it really is almost the same. Similarly to Chinese, Germans see themselves as mostly the same culture. Standarddeutsch is pretty much a fusion between the different vari…

> Standarddeutsch is pretty much a fusion between the different varieties and has evolved along with them for a long time; differently from 普通話, which is much younger and the standardized form of a northern variety of Chinese. Standard German is not that old. It was largely developed in the 19th Century, and it was not until the 20th Century that most people in Germany were able to speak it. Standard German is also h…

The origins of Standarddeutsch trace back to Martin Luther's bible translation that exposed a huge audience to a very important text, which was most importantly also written to be approachable to that audience.

The German dialect it used was a colonial dialect that already contained mixed features from multiple dialect area and was thus suitable for a wide audience.

Of course the emerging standard underwent development since then, and low literacy rates meant that few people actually spoke and wrote it.

Re: If English was written like Chinese (1999)

#310
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Standarddeutsch is pretty much a fusion between the different varieties and has evolved along with them for a long time; differently from 普通話, which is much younger and the standardized form of a northern variety of Chinese. Standard German is not that old. It was largely developed in the 19th Century, and it was not until the 20th Century that most people in Germany were able to speak it. Standard German is also h…

The origins of Standarddeutsch trace back to Martin Luther's bible translation that exposed a huge audience to a very important text, which was most importantly also written to be approachable to that audience. The German dialect it used was a colonial dialect that already contained mixed features from multiple dialect area and was thus suitable for a wide audience. Of course the emerging standard underwent developme…

> The origins of Standarddeutsch trace back to Martin Luther's bible translation that exposed a huge audience to a very important text, which was most importantly also written to be approachable to that audience.

If you want to go this route, then you could also say that the origins of Standard Chinese date back hundreds of years, to the language spoken by the imperial bureaucracy, or to massively popular works written in vernacular Chinese, like the Dream of the Red Chamber (late 1700s). There are always ancient antecedents that you can trace, but they become less and less directly related to the development of the modern language.

Yes, the Luther Bible was an important influence on the development of a standard literary German, but if you want to trace the development of a standardized spoken dialect of German, you have to go to the 19th Century and the development of Bühnendeutsch ("stage German"), which because of its use in theater had to have a standard pronunciation.

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