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Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

news.ycombinator.com

301–310 of 381 posts

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#301

I doubt you'd find "an employees" if your job ad has grammar or typography mistakes in it.

Ok look sorry to mess with you, but the irony may be informative. You’re complaining about someone’s “typography” on a forum that doesn’t really allow a lot of font and layout flexibility. Or did you mean typographical?

Typographical is an adjective (pertaining to typography). I used the noun on purpose.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#302
post #281
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

to qualify, unions may have solved this problem in the US. in europe, which has a stronger apprentice culture, unions don't have any role here. (i am not saying this to criticize the comment but just to point out one of the many differences between unions in the US and europe) the problem with apprentice programs is that they lag behind the changes in the industry. when i was in school there were none for software de…

unions are long established in europe, at least in western europe, and are a cornerstone of the social system. even white collar jobs have unions. this is in contrast to the US where unions are almost entirely non existent for white collar jobs like software engineering.

Union Law in a lot of "Europe" (a broad term so very dependent country to country) is much less adversarial with businesses than in the US.

At least in Western Europe, the big Unions won't fight tooth and nail over mass layoffs (eg. Volvo in 2009-12 Sweden versus GM in 2009-12 US) and make it a major political issue, as the Union Leadership has larger ambitions beyond their Union.

A lot of this seems to stem from the influence National Syndicalism had on most European unions in the 20th century compared to traditional Syndicalism in the US+UK in the 20th century.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#303

At my startup we’ve recently started hiring for a Founding Engineer with Mobile Development skills (Flutter) and some backend. It seems impossible to find a right candidate for us and we are indeed looking at an agency for now even if I was fairly against it as a CTO. It’s most likely a numbers game, but it’s hard to find coders that also have some kind of founders attitude. Either people who are founders are indeed…

So the problem is paying them. You want a founder for an engineer's salary.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#304

What really needs to happen is that we need to hire fast and fire fast. Stop it with the 7 rounds of interviews. Assume after some discussion and basic verification that the person isn’t lying about past experience. Hire the first candidate that passes your bar instead of interviewing and ranking 20 candidates. If it turns out that you have hired every tech employers worst nightmare, a person with great experience wh…

> we need to hire fast and fire fast

You'll end up having more trouble hiring when candidates don't want to relocate or leave their current job because it's too risky to join your company which has a reputation to easily fire its employees even though they passed their tests.

If I were unemployed and I wouldn't need to relocate, sure, I'd be willing to give it a try for a few weeks and see if it's a mutual match, that'd be ideal. If I need to relocate or leave my current stable job, you'll have to pay a big premium over my current compensation to make it worth it.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Procter & Gamble famously uses “cognitive assessments” for hundreds of thousands of applicants per year. There are test prep firms for it much like you’d find for the mcat or gre.

As best I can tell P&G is an aptitude test that only resembles fake IQ tests and more resembles a mix of leetcoding and personality tests - probably sharing the same benefit of opacity. Other info I found on it suggests that it’s easily gamed which is something real IQ tests are designed to be resistant to. I’m not trying to ‘no true Scotsman’ this but it would be helpful if the company described their test at least…

The search terms you are looking for are P&G Digit, P&G Switch and P&G Grid.

Here is official AON documentation (who also use P&G Switch) on Switch calling it a Deductive Logical Reasoning test.

https://assessment.aon.com/aon.assessment/media/files/factsh...

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities owe their graduates with 5-6 figure college debt jobs that can pay those debts off. > Employers have already shifted enough of their job training costs onto universities and their unwitting students. The free ride is over. I'm fine with this model, but will applicants be interested in earning a bit above minimum wage for 3 years as we train them from scratch? This is the model that the Indian and Chinese…

I think certification institutions--from universities to bootcamps--have found that it's more profitable to focus on quantity over quality. They are producing dollar store products because the market has shown that employers are dollar store customers, despite what they say. The more valid the cert program is as a hiring signal, the more it will restrict the quantity of labor supply, and employers don't want this; th…

> employers don't want this; they want to churn and burn through a pile of young people--or outsource--and then throw them away when their upkeep gets too expensive

I am an employer and have funded employers. That is a VERY WARPED view of hiring and I hope to god you never ever come near to getting a promotion to EM.

> I think certification institutions--from universities to bootcamps--have found that it's more profitable to focus on quantity over quality

That's BS. There's a reason employers still subconsciously discriminate based on the quality of program you graduated from.

The CS curriculum at Cal beats the CS curriculum at CSU East Bay in almost every single way, and it isn't because of the content alone but also the broad education provided.

We don't need code monkeys (and if you are a code monkey, you job is absolutely going to be automated or outsourced in the next 3-5 years), we need people who deep down understand or can think critically about a specific domain (technical or business).

I don't care if you can code in Cobol or NodeJS - can you deliver an MVP in a quarter, and then have the ability to pivot that MVP to meet changing customer or product demands? Can you architect services to both be cost efficient AND resource efficient?

We pay people in the tech industry good money to THINK. Critical Thinking is the actual blocker, and this is the primary reason why Leetcode and Whiteboard interviews are so popular.

At the end of the day, a Leetcode medium and Whiteboard interview is a puzzle, and if you can solve puzzles, you can think critically about architecture, product decisions, etc.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#307
post #13

I don't understand the hiring people industry. The questions thrown at me are trivia, if I knew the answer, or not, it doesn't mean anything. People are looking for weird specifics for things that ... really don't need it. The job inevitably doesn't even rely on those specifics. I'll learn whatever anyone wants, I like doing that ... no honestly I do. Can I just talk to the folks I'll potentially be working with / fo…

After years of software experience i have done more copy and pasting, implementing protocols, fixing old school ui threading issues, troubleshooting rare and hard to find bugs... never leetcoding. and not a single interviewer has ever targeted these skills properly.

The coding tests are specifically designed to hire only recent graduates of computer science. My education was electronics engineering so specifically did not have much "algorithm specific" training (too bad hiring managers have no idea how to change their expectations based on that)

I usually just get underhired in technician and production roles and end up running the entire IT/technical/engineering of small companies in a couple years.No interviewer has ever showed interest in this either.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#308
post #297
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You have to be lucky (including knowing someone, ie networking), not necessarily good." Yes, and the network effects are largely detrimental to minority groups since networks tend to be biased toward similar people.

Are you sure about this? Seems to me that minorities (Asians) are quite over-represented in tech. Many people are of course racist and don't count Asians as minorities...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40416402

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#309

The market is just retarded. I think it's because many of the people who work for big tech companies aren't smart enough. If you're less skilled than them, you won't get the job because they can recognize idiocy. If you're smarter than them, you also won't get the job because they will feel threatened. They don't want to hire more competition for themselves. You have to have almost exactly the same skill level as the…

This is it, this was 90% of my interviews so far. People barely smart enough to do the job that have no clue about anything.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#310
post #303

At my startup we’ve recently started hiring for a Founding Engineer with Mobile Development skills (Flutter) and some backend. It seems impossible to find a right candidate for us and we are indeed looking at an agency for now even if I was fairly against it as a CTO. It’s most likely a numbers game, but it’s hard to find coders that also have some kind of founders attitude. Either people who are founders are indeed…

So the problem is paying them. You want a founder for an engineer's salary.

You mean what we shouldn't offer a salary and only equity?
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