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Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

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Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#301

Post by throw0101b »

skeeter2020 wrote: post #290

Nothing destroys your love of a hobby, even one that you are passionately (or even obsessively) dedicated to, like making it your job. I LOVE riding bikes but all the BS of working in software is preferable to trying to support my love of bikes within the broader industry of bikes. The word "amateur" has negative connotations, but should really be interpreted as "not your primary pay cheque", not that you suck.

> The word "amateur" has negative connotations, but should really be interpreted as "not your primary pay cheque", not that you suck.

The negative connotations is a more recent development:

> The meaning "one who cultivates and participates (in something) but does not pursue it professionally or with an eye to gain" (as opposed to professional) is from 1786; often with disparaging suggestions of "dabbler, dilettante," but not in athletics, where the disparagement shaded the professional, at least formerly. As an adjective, by 1838.

* https://www.etymonline.com/word/amateur

It comes from the from the Latin amatorem, "lover": someone who does something not for any practical reason, but simply for the enjoyment / love of the activity. How well one does it does not necessarily come into consideration, as long as there is enjoyment.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#302

Post by mbeddedartistry »

jimbokun wrote: post #256
ravenstine wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a level or two down from the abstraction of company size, crafting hobbies are also a reprieve from the tyranny of linters. So many programmers today believe that code is always better when it all looks identical. Consistency is a good thing, but not when it's expected to be absolute. Programming should actually allow for creativity, and where you decide to add spaces and newlines can actually add subtle but impor…

How you choose to add whitespace to your code is not a meaningful outlet for creativity. Linters are a great tool for eliminating bike shedding. I don't think wood working per se gives you more flexibility than building software. It's wood working as an individual, not part of a team, so you can make your own decisions and not answer to anyone. If you were a one man software consultant you would have the same amount…

As a one man software consultant, I just want to point out that you are working with clients, in their systems, on their problems. You provide advice, they make the decisions they deem best for their company.

You get to choose the problem spaces and teams, which is a degree of autonomy. But it is not quite so free as “making your own decisions and not answering to anybody.”

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#303

Post by _yb2s »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #255
_yb2s wrote: post #239

I don't understand why more adults don't have awesome hobbies... most of my childhood friends don't seem to do anything fun now as adults. I really love physical things I can do with my body as a counterbalance to working on the computer- weight lifting, woodworking, and sailing add a lot of value to my life, and have gotten me outdoors and in shape. I'm currently building a wood sailboat in my garage together with m…

What time is left after work, kids, sleep, and personal obligations for the median adult? Awesome hobbies are awesome! But they require time, and in some cases, financial resources.

How much do you really sleep and work in a week? If you work 40 hours a week and sleep 56, that leaves 72 more hours. Most knowledge workers actually do more like 10-15 hours/wk of real focused "deep work" and a lot of people sleep less than that also...

I find plenty of time to do my hobbies despite being a single dad, and having a high stress academic PI job. I have every weekend and evening free, and I use them. I also involve my kid in my hobbies- we do them together, so it's also parenting time.

I think most people aren't short on time, but short on energy because of poor physical and mental health- things that can be solved/addressed. For me, the hobbies themselves are a key part of staying healthy enough to have a lot of energy. But also not the only thing- I had serious medical problems that caused fatigue, which I needed to treat to have the energy I now have.

I also usually find a way to do hobbies cheaply, or even make money at them. For example, with cars and boats I get cheap ones that need work, fix them myself, and usually sell for enough more to keep the hobby self sustaining.

Ultimately, the most important thing is to just do it, even if it seems too expensive/inaccessible/etc. Take a leap/risk and find a way to overcome the barriers, don't come up with excuses to stop before you even start.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#304

Post by hinkley »

ravenstine wrote: post #62
Arainach wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consistency is critical for reducing mental load when working as a team. Format your personal projects however you want, but when collaborating your editor should apply the standard format every time you save.

Maybe I'm not articulating my point very well. I absolutely agree that consistency, in principle, is usually a very good thing. My objection is to the idea that it's always a good thing, which it's not. Treating code formatting as rules rather than suggestions, in my experience, is a waste of time and unnecessarily tyrannical. In terms of mere code formatting, I don't buy that there's a meaningful difference between…

I think you’re selling you example short here. Linting and formatters should be about applying a minimal acceptable limit to code, not diluting everything to the same mediocrity. It’s been a long time since I ran into a formatter that I hate out of the box.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#305

Post by hinkley »

meijer wrote: post #98
ravenstine wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a level or two down from the abstraction of company size, crafting hobbies are also a reprieve from the tyranny of linters. So many programmers today believe that code is always better when it all looks identical. Consistency is a good thing, but not when it's expected to be absolute. Programming should actually allow for creativity, and where you decide to add spaces and newlines can actually add subtle but impor…

My theory is that excessive linter rules might be a symptom of trying to compensate for the weaknesses of a programming language. I see it a lot in Python and JavaScript projects where the language gives very litte guarantees about anything. If you use a programming language that affords some guarantees like Haskell or even just C#, people seem to be less interested in linters.

It’s okay to want more.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#306

Post by cityofdelusion »

whartung wrote: post #223

I used to (actually I still do) quip about if, back in the day, I spent the money I did on computer equipment instead on woodworking tools, not only would I have a shop that could probably compare with Norm Abraham’s, but id still have a majority of them and they’d still work.

Woodworking is insanely expensive from my experience. I saved way more money when computers and electronics were my hobby. Some software is like what $50-70 max? A full 3d printing kit is $1000. Buying mere wood to start a project is in the hundreds, minimum, and the tool equivalent to a high end Ryzen processor _starts_ in the thousands.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#307

Post by _yb2s »

vbezhenar wrote: post #283
toomuchtodo wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What time is left after work, kids, sleep, and personal obligations for the median adult? Awesome hobbies are awesome! But they require time, and in some cases, financial resources.

And many hobbies require space. I'd love to do some woodworking but I don't have any space for that. I live in small flat. Of course nothing money couldn't solve, but buying huge house with workshop is another level of expenses and requires lifestyle changes as well.

There are makerspaces and the like- I'm a member of a low cost DIY-centric yacht club where people maintain and build their own boats, and we have a full woodworking shop that is shared/free. We have programs to make membership free for young people and those that can't afford it. You can also make friends with people that have the equipment for just about any hobby, and do it with them for free.

I used to buy/sell/repair cars as an undergrad in college both for fun and spare money, and did it on the side of public roads, and outside in a low budget apartment parking lot.

For many equipment-intensive hobbies, you can also take classes, e.g. at a local community college or community center, which are taught in places with all of the equipment provided.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#308

Post by hinkley »

jimbokun wrote: post #284
WillAdams wrote: post #138

Interestingly, Glenn Reid also escaped from making software (Touchtype.app, PasteUp.app, wrote "The Green Book", _PostScript Language Program Design_) to making dovetail joined furniture by hand. That said, I've always described the "Maker" movement as "Geeks who missed shop class", and have argued that the world would be a better place if the Sloyd system of woodworking as a basic constituent of education was preval…

Isn't it more Geeks who enjoyed shop class, but went into software because it paid more? (I'm the Geek who hated shop class, and thank my locking stars I can make a living writing software, decades later.)

Being reductive af and a little sardonic: I couldn’t think of a job that involved LEGO before I encountered my first programming class.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#309

Post by hn72774 »

Having interests outside of work is important for me. When I get too focused on any one thing, work or whatever, I start to lose the forest from the trees. It also helps me keep my identity separate from my job. There is no company loyalty to employees anymore.

A hobby gives me enough distance from work problems to come back to them with a fresh perspective and more energy.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#310

Post by plugin-baby »

eddd-ddde wrote: post #286
ravenstine wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a level or two down from the abstraction of company size, crafting hobbies are also a reprieve from the tyranny of linters. So many programmers today believe that code is always better when it all looks identical. Consistency is a good thing, but not when it's expected to be absolute. Programming should actually allow for creativity, and where you decide to add spaces and newlines can actually add subtle but impor…

> the tyranny of linters This is a take I don't think I've seen before. Is someone actually mad prettier is changing their single quotes to double quotes? Are they mad some line is breaking at some word? Certainly I've never been. I use linters / formatters even when I'm working solo because the mere concept of having to think where to break lines is meaningless disruption from the actual goals I have. If you _really…

> Is someone actually mad prettier is changing their single quotes to double quotes? Are they mad some line is breaking at some word?

Yes, both of these.

Obviously there are huge benefits to auto-formatting in large teams and popular open source projects, but some people also find benefit in having control of alignment, line breaks, indentation etc.

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