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Ex-Google engineer charged with stealing trade secrets

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Re: Ex-Google engineer charged with stealing trade secrets

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/counterintelligence/the-chin... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law_of_t...

> All organizations and citizens shall support, assist, and cooperate with national intelligence efforts in accordance with law, and shall protect national intelligence work secrets they are aware of. That's as vague as it can be. Does any country not have similar laws?

Which countries have laws that require their citizens to "support, assist, and cooperate with national intelligence efforts"?

Re: Ex-Google engineer charged with stealing trade secrets

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not many countries have system in place to incentivize reverse brain drain Most regional powers do. The Chinese program is based on Japan's METI, Taiwan's MEA, and Israel's MoE. These 3 countries devised the primary reverse brain drain programs that countries like China, South Korea, Turkey, India, etc began emulating in the 2000s-2010s.

I suppose more accurate to characterize not all are successful as preventing/reversing brain drain to maintain/grow competitiveness. PRC emulating 2000s challenges JP/TW recognized is expected. Difference is in execution/available playbook, PRC has growing R&D budget and commercial opportunties to brain drain from likes of JP/TW now, and that's mostly side effect of scale and PRC dumping resources into relevant secto…

> so they leave for greener pastures abroad

Alternatively, SK and Japanese companies have succeeded in expanding foreign R&D capacity significantly (starting with China in the early 2000s) and there isn't as much a need to remain within JP+SK anymore.

For example, SK and JP expat talent is fairly common in VN, TH, and IN now where they are managing local divisions in those countries.

This largely connects with both Japan and SK's "Flying Geese Paradigm" (雁行形態論) to use Japanese and Korean R&D capacity to build newer markets abroad, and cultivate a secondary tier of R&D capacity.

This was a major reason why Japanese manufacturers heavily invested in electronics R&D in Thailand, Malaysia, China (before 2013), and India along with SK's similar attempts in Vietnam and China (before 2017).

Most of these Koreans and Japanese abroad continue to work for Korean and Japanese companies or (if in the US) on funded scholarships or research from both governments.

> Last years report on brain drain from top 10/100/1000 indian institutions was staggering

Which report?

The only Indian institutions that matter are Institues of National Importance (INI), and very few graduates (usually around 1-5%) from those programs go abroad excluding for graduate study, based on placement statistics since 2017.

During the 2011-17 period there was a structural slowdown in the Indian economy due to an infra lending crisis which was resolved by Raghuram Rajan, Arvind Subramanian, and Krishnamurthy Subramanian's reforms [0]

IME, after the Indian economy stabilized by 2018, most Indians abroad tend to be from non-target institutions, or those who's careers hit a rut as they were unable to be placed at a tier 1 employer (usually a company or government agency that can pay a $10-15k a year starting salary).

> Regional powers don't get this playbook.

Agree to disagree.

The primary difference between China and other countries is that China wouldn't allow significant ownership in R&D FDI within China, thus creating a de facto firewall between domestic talent and R&D capacity abroad.

Most Japanese and Korean companies already tired from that policy and began decoupling in the 2010s, and China was never as closely integrated into the American innovation system as Israel and India (thus leading to the development of local R&D champions).

This is NOT to say China is inferior, but this is to say that there is a level of protectionism in Chinese R&D capacity that isn't as common in other countries (even Russia pre-2022), and increasingly incentivizes Chinese R&D to remain relatively insular.

Most other countries don't have the need to develop hyper-insular R&D capacities as international cooperation remains fairly high.

[0] - https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2023/05/11/i...

Re: Ex-Google engineer charged with stealing trade secrets

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All good! > Visas are back up Yep! Now that the US is processing Chinese visa applications again (and Zero Covid ended) people are applying again, but ime most Chinese nationals I've seen or interviewed at American programs tend to be those who are Chinese nationals but studied abroad (eg. In the UK or Canada). I don't really see Tier 1 Chinese STEM graduates at lower tier American programs anymore compared to say 5-…

The tier 1 graduates don't need to go to lower tier American programs anymore. They've already leveled up beyond that. They are going to tier 1 programs abroad, or just going to work at a FAANG or a Chinese-equivalent (when I worked for Microsoft Research in Beijing, we lost a lot of tier 1 undergraduate new graduates to Google in California, and that was 10 years ago)

Fair point!

I guess my question is whether statistically speaking a MS Research Beijing caliber researcher in 2024 (or 2019) would prefer to work abroad in Bellevue or prefer to stay in China.

This is an open question and I'm not sure we'd have the granular level of data needed to test either hypothesis for at least a decade.

All I can use is anecdotal information, but that of course has biases.

Re: Ex-Google engineer charged with stealing trade secrets

#304
post #280
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Authoritarian models are not efficient in anyway, they can project the image of being efficient but that does not mean they are. They are worse in every way apart from complete disorder and chaos.

Corporations are, in most cases, much more authoritarian than democratic. With a few exceptions, workers don't get a vote in the running of a corporation. To the extent that they do, it's usually in the form of unions or the very rare category of worker cooperatives. Even for countries, they absolutely can be efficient, it's just the efficiency is directed at stuff The Leader wants rather than stuff The People want.

The authoritarianism of corporations cannot be compared that of a state, workers might not get a vote but they are free to leave a corporation in a free society, and corporations do not have the power to arrest people (I'm aware of exceptions). They're also subject to much higher selective pressure than states which helps keep them in check.

I was talking about overall and general efficiency, authoritarian states are less economically, militarily and scientifically efficient than their freer counterparts. They may be effective at pursuing specific policy goals, and there are authoritarian states that have sufficient mass that they can achieve a lot in any given field, but they are usually more effective at giving the appearance of effectiveness that they are than actually achieving anything. Either way, effectiveness is not efficiency.

Re: Ex-Google engineer charged with stealing trade secrets

#306
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the spirit of your statement that no crime has occurred. But this isn't a case where someone just expressed a vague interest in a related topic of national security, but their specific intent to steal secrets and give them to an adversary. And then go ahead and interview at certain companies with that intent. This would be like someone specifically (not vaguely) stating their intent to commit a violent c…

Trade secrets aren’t national security.

That’s not what the department of commerce thinks. Just giving information to a foreign national can be considered “deemed export” and get your company in trouble.

https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/policy-guidance/deemed-exp...

Re: Ex-Google engineer charged with stealing trade secrets

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/counterintelligence/the-chin... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law_of_t...

> All organizations and citizens shall support, assist, and cooperate with national intelligence efforts in accordance with law, and shall protect national intelligence work secrets they are aware of. That's as vague as it can be. Does any country not have similar laws?

I've never heard of that as a requirement for US citizens. I mean the government can't compel you to be a spy (industrial or espionage) last I checked. I'd be happy to be corrected. I mean you can totally volunteer for it though, of course.

Re: Ex-Google engineer charged with stealing trade secrets

#308
post #9

Google has a fair bit of experience with employees stealing trade secrets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Levandowski#Criminal_c...

It's doubly awkward that this guy apparently doesn't know or underestimate Google's determination to trace employee' access.

That determination got stronger after this incident.

Re: Ex-Google engineer charged with stealing trade secrets

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tier 1 graduates don't need to go to lower tier American programs anymore. They've already leveled up beyond that. They are going to tier 1 programs abroad, or just going to work at a FAANG or a Chinese-equivalent (when I worked for Microsoft Research in Beijing, we lost a lot of tier 1 undergraduate new graduates to Google in California, and that was 10 years ago)

Fair point! I guess my question is whether statistically speaking a MS Research Beijing caliber researcher in 2024 (or 2019) would prefer to work abroad in Bellevue or prefer to stay in China. This is an open question and I'm not sure we'd have the granular level of data needed to test either hypothesis for at least a decade. All I can use is anecdotal information, but that of course has biases.

2019 they preferred to stay in China. 2024, I think the pendulum swung back again given COVID zero's fall out, but who knows how long that lasts.

Re: Ex-Google engineer charged with stealing trade secrets

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny that you mention France when the USA is #1 in the world for corporate spying. Having been involved in western Europe for deal where US competitor were given "advantage", USA spying was always number one concern over all other countries (and this is how counter spying agencies brief companies) as it had more direct economic damage and is more difficult to identify than Chinese spying. Few examples just for Airbu…

The American government will spy, but will not explicitly spy to provide IP directly to a private company like Boeing or Lockheed, as this enters felony level corruption territory due to the Procurement Integrity Act, Federal Acquisition Streamlining Act, and the Federal Acquisition Regulation. The main difference is DGSE would explicitly attempt to steal American IP and then provide it to Thales or Dassault.

They may not provide direct R&D details but they will provide direct information about offers price, negotiation status etc. This is part of the Snowden leaks that people seems to have completely forgotten.

https://wikileaks.org/nsa-france/spyorder/#spyorder2

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