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Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

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Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#301

Post by sanderjd »

koonsolo wrote: post #270
sanderjd wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they're people who are also just trying to do a job. I'm sure there are some sadists out there who take pleasure in this kind of meeting, but I'm just as sure that for every one of those, there are a hundred (or a thousand) people for whom this is the worst part of their job, who go home and hug their kids with watery eyes at the end of a day that was horrible for them. You aren't mad at them, you're mad at t…

It's all about the ethics of it. If my employer tells me to call a person and tell them they are fired because they did a bad job, but it's clear that this is not the reason, I would say: sorry, but I'm not going to do that. Remember, it's an "employer", not a "boss".

I totally agree that people should strive to have an ethical center in their work and refuse to do unethical things when asked by their employers.

(But for what it's worth, this doesn't seem to me like a cut and dry description of what happened here; sales is a very cut-throat quota sensitive profession in my experience.)

But nevertheless, I empathize with people who also have to figure out how to put food on their own family's table, in a profession (HR) that is itself very sensitive to downturns.

The comments in this thread read to me like software developers who have not faced a world where it is not easy get a better new job easily after quitting one that sucks, and / or who are young and unattached with very few expenses, and struggle to put themselves in the shoes of someone for whom a principled resignation could have devastating consequences.

It just seems to me like a classic case of shooting the messenger.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#302

Post by rocketbop »

_nalply wrote: post #246
r3trohack3r wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's extremely asymmetrical, too. I’ve lived a very different culture than you in the U.S. - to the degree I’m surprised to see you express this sentiment. In days of yore, people gave notice. But then a meme policy of “don’t poison the well” did the rounds. Roughly, the philosophy went: when someone is leaving they can only do harm; they are leaving, they have a convincing reason for leaving, and you don’t want th…

That's horrible and very different from what I experienced in Switzerland. It's a concept in Swiss law that obligations are symmetrical, and the periods are quite long (three months, and not only for employment, but for other contracts as well, like renting). If you are dismissed on the spot, you'll get three months of pay. On the other hand, if you give or are given notice, you are sometimes expected to continue wor…

> Looking back even I found that a bit strange because I understand the thing with doing only harm when someone is leaving. For example by leaving backdoors?

I think the harm meant is more about spreading negativity to other employees who might be inspired to jump ship too.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#303

Post by lamontcg »

monero-xmr wrote: post #125
danpalmer wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a huge difference between the ideals of what a union can offer, and the practice of entrenched unions in some specific industries, particularly in the US. As a well paid software engineer who wants to work with high performing colleagues, nothing my union has said has suggested they aren't supportive of this. They are about holding companies to account, not entrenching poor performers or normalising s…

The specific criticism I heard my friend rant about was a colleague who did very little because they felt slighted, and they could never be fired for anything really, so because he wanted to move on with his life he just did all that other guys’ work.

And I raise you all the useless people I've seen promoted/hired into management positions in non-union shops.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#304

Post by mlrtime »

vineyardmike wrote: post #129
kqr wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a US thing where the company doesn't want to give any reasons for firing someone because that can be used in a lawsuit against them?

Yes and no. Layoffs are “supposed to be” non-performance based. “Our widget didn’t sell so we’re laying off the widget makers”. That’s the generally accepted idea. In the US you totally can sue if they fire you for a protected reason (“we noticed you were missing meetings on maternity leave, men would never do that”). Some people would sue over anything I’m sure. If you’re a salesperson and you didn’t sell anything f…

Small nitpick on your example as it can be confusing.

Employees can be 100% layed off during maternity or paternity leave. The second part is the problem, making it about gender/sex.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#305

Post by cdeutsch »

The way tech companies have been doing layoffs is appalling. This would be my 26th year in the industry if I had a job or could get another one. I have little desire to go back. I hope there's another big developer shortage someday but with developments in AI it seems unlikely.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#306

Post by sanderjd »

krainboltgreene wrote: post #252
sanderjd wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they're people who are also just trying to do a job. I'm sure there are some sadists out there who take pleasure in this kind of meeting, but I'm just as sure that for every one of those, there are a hundred (or a thousand) people for whom this is the worst part of their job, who go home and hug their kids with watery eyes at the end of a day that was horrible for them. You aren't mad at them, you're mad at t…

> Because they're people who are also just trying to do a job. Then they should not do that job.

What do you suggest for making this statement realistic?

People who work in HR do useful things. I have leaned on "people operations" support in most companies I've worked for, they do recruitment and policies on employee behavior and performance management and a bunch of other things. This is all valuable work. I'm glad it's not what I do for work, but it would be a much suckier world if nobody chose to do this work.

But they are also asked by company leadership to be the buffer, to be the messenger that gets "shot", when bad or even necessary but incredibly painful decisions are made. It's part of the expectations of the people who hire them, that they'll do that.

So what do you suggest? Do all the other useful stuff, but then when asked to be that buffer in these shitty moments, they should quit and find a new job? What should they say when asked why they quit? Is it ethical to lie about it, or do they tell a prospective new employer that there is an expected part of the role they're applying for that they are not willing to do?

Or is your suggestion something better? Like perhaps there could be a professional guild for HR professionals, and they could have a code of ethics that makes it clear that this is not something they will do. I think that would be pretty great! But that would be a much bigger and entirely different project that individuals quitting in protest.

Or perhaps your suggestion is, actually, that there should be nobody working in HR, that it is not a useful function. In that case, no, that's wrong, I've worked with many smart technically inclined people who think this, and I've worked at companies that are led by people who believe this, and it sucks.

I'm all for shifting the expectation of who has the responsibility for delivering the news of shitty decisions onto the management that made the decisions, but there has to be some theory of the case for how to get there from here.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#307

Post by mlrtime »

IvyMike wrote: post #160
ChatGTP wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a load of nonsense. People sacrifice a lot of personal time to ramp up in a job. This is why she is emotional. Then she was told she was doing well..by her manager. Now her investment is bogus and it sounds like she will not be compensated at all for it? I mean you're advocating she asks for compensation, when they tell her no? Then what? Not sure who you are but you're delusional if you think this is ok. "Go ge…

Not sure who I am either, but in no way did I say "this is ok". I'm saying there's nothing to be gained to prolonging the talk with two drones from HR. Maybe I'm missing something. What's your best case scenario for how the call goes? What is the biggest potential upside?

In general I agree with you, however.

Advice that is "go get drunk" to deal with a horrible situation is bad. Maybe this is what she needs for closure and not looking for answers in the bottom of a bottle.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#308

Post by blitzar »

whalesalad wrote: post #99
aaomidi wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is amazing video for making a legal case against Cloudflare. Cloudflare took a stupid, unnecessary risk here by trying to put this on performance when they haven't documented it.

What case? At will employment is a thing. You can terminate people with absolutely no reason if you want, most of the time.

> At will employment is a thing. You can terminate people with absolutely no reason if you want, most of the time.

In which case fire them with no reason. If however you waive that choice and offer a specific reason then you probably should make the chosen reason true unless you want to be sued for wrongful dismissal.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#309

Post by A_D_E_P_T »

cvak wrote: post #296
aaomidi wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is amazing video for making a legal case against Cloudflare. Cloudflare took a stupid, unnecessary risk here by trying to put this on performance when they haven't documented it.

To me it sounds like excelent video for making a legal case againts Britanny, I'd be very upset if someone would be secretly recording a meeting with me as a HR person. Guess that depends on a state, but good luck finding another corporate job.

She's in Georgia, and Georgia, like most states, is a "one-party consent" state for purposes of making audio recordings of conversations. They'd have no case at all.

Re: Cloudflare employee posts layoff call with HR and goes viral [video]

#310

Post by november84 »

rockemsockem wrote: post #163
IvyMike wrote: post #25

I get why Brittany's mad: Cloudflare appears to be handling this about as bad as possible. But those two HR randos aren't gonna have anything worthwhile to say, either. I don't want to be judgmental of Brittany because it's a sucky call to have to take. But my recommendation in this situation is to say "I disagree with that assessment of my performance, but I understand you are terminating my employment. What details…

And what she's did is establish that they have nothing of worth to say and make them as uncomfortable as possible throughout the whole thing. Those both seem very worthwhile.

And it's on video so cheers to that.
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