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Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

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Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#301

Post by arbenpurben »

troupo wrote: post #288
joedevon wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing the spirit of the whole thing. HTMX is a polyfill for the future state of browsers.

It's not, and it's not even pretending to be

Um, yes friend, that’s exactly what it’s trying to be. Carson has said numerous times that in an ideal world, the html spec would evolve to the point the htmx becomes redundant. It’s not about htmx or any library/framework - it’s about extending html.

If that doesn’t convince you, then I’ve got nothing and suggest we both just go and enjoy some lazer horse/buffalo/pickle memes in the htmx twitter account

Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#302

Post by ysavir »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #209
ysavir wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say templaters like Vue and Angular, with the HTML additions of `v-for`, `@click`, etc., are a library in a similar way to HTMX? If so, is the differentiation then just setting apart HTMX, Vue, etc from JSX and other JS-in-HTML approaches?

I'd look mainly at the amount of code you have to provide to them and the infrastructure (e.g. JSX) they require. Not saying there isn't a blurry line here.

That feels like goal shifting.

Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#303

Post by cqqxo4zV46cp »

troupo wrote: post #299
recursivedoubts wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you keep saying this despite the fact that I explicitly include https://hyperview.org as an example of another hypermedia in https://hypermedia.systems . I am very open to other types of hypermedia and often refer people to “RESTful Web Cliebts” by mark amundsen ( https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/restful-web-clients/978... ) to learn how build them.

> I am very open to other types of hypermedia Of course you're not. And I already pointed it out to you elsewhere. Your entire writing and marketing revolves around one idea, and one idea only: HTML is "natural hypermedia", and everything else is not.

At this point you are very loudly and publicly grinding your axe to the point that you’re telling someone to their face that they don’t understand their own viewpoint. Putting aside briefly the insanity and futility of that, it makes for a bad experience for literally everyone else.

Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#304

Post by cqqxo4zV46cp »

hellcow wrote: post #134
pphysch wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that different than a standard or element that submits an HTTP request, receives some HTML in response, and uses that HTML to render a new GUI?

The point of HTMX is that any element can submit HTTP requests, and you can drop the response anywhere in the document. It no longer has to be just and with full page reloads.

Yes. That’s the point? So why is it egregious in a way that is not?

Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#305

Post by dventimi »

troupo wrote: post #298
dventimi wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The author pretends that his library is what hypertext and hypermedia are as envisioned by Time Berners-Lee and Roy Fielding, and that his approach is the only true representation of both. Does he? Evidence or it didn't happen.

They literally have an entire book written to contort those definitions to mean HTMX

Then it should be easy for you to find at least one passage that demonstrates that.

Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#306

Post by recursivedoubts »

troupo wrote: post #299
recursivedoubts wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you keep saying this despite the fact that I explicitly include https://hyperview.org as an example of another hypermedia in https://hypermedia.systems . I am very open to other types of hypermedia and often refer people to “RESTful Web Cliebts” by mark amundsen ( https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/restful-web-clients/978... ) to learn how build them.

> I am very open to other types of hypermedia Of course you're not. And I already pointed it out to you elsewhere. Your entire writing and marketing revolves around one idea, and one idea only: HTML is "natural hypermedia", and everything else is not.

OK, this is just completely unreasonable of you. HTML is a natural hypermedia in that it has native hypermedia controls. JSON & XML are not natural hypermedia because they do not, however hypermedia controls can be added on top of them, as in the case of HXML/hyperview, which, again I include in my book on hypermedia systems.

There are many other hypermedias, such as Siren, which uses JSON as a base, and I have never claimed otherwise. Mark Amundsen, perhaps the worlds expert on hypermedia, wrote the forward to my book, Hypermedia Systems, and found nothing objectionable and much worthwhile in it.

I hate to be rude but you didn't understand, or refused to acknowledge, the basic meaning and usage of the term 'hypermedia control' until I cited a W3C document using it. While I certainly understand people can dislike the conceptual basis of htmx, its admittedly idiosyncratic implementation or the way we talk about it, at this point I have tried to engage you multiple times in good faith here and have been rewarded with baseless accusations of things I haven't said and don't believe.

At this point, to be an honest person, you need to apologize for misrepresenting what I am saying multiple times to other people. It is dishonest and it makes you a liar, over something as dumb as a technical disagreement.

Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#307

Post by recursivedoubts »

troupo wrote: post #295
recursivedoubts wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, good, so I think we agree I am using the term "hypermedia control" correctly then? > None of them existed in the "basic idea of HTML". Well, the form tag was introduced in HTML 2, which was in some ways the first "standard" for it, so relatively early in the game: After the HTML and HTML+ drafts expired in early 1994, the IETF created an HTML Working Group. In 1995, this working group completed "HTML 2.0", the fi…

> That's my definition of a Hypermedia-Driven Application, a term I made up to contrast with SPAs. There's no contrast. It's not even a made up term. I was doing "hypermedia-driven applications" with HATEOAS in 2012. > I agree with you that a hypermedia can be imposed on top of JSON, which does not have native hypermedia controls The way you extend browser behaviour with Javascript to use non-standard attributes, non…

Is english your first language? I feel like many of your objections, insofar as I can make sense of them, fall into language & semantic debates.

The term HDA, which I coined and, therefore, feel like I have some ability to define, was created to contrast with the familiar SPA/Single Page Application acronym, which is a term used in web development. This is why I focus on the web with that article.

As I have repeated incessantly with you, I included HXML, a mobile hypermedia from the https://hyperview.org project, in my book on hypermedia systems, and I hope this indicates to a fair minded 3rd person (I have given up on you acknowledging my plain language here) that I do not believe that HTML is the only hypermedia in the world.

Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#308

Post by recursivedoubts »

flir wrote: post #290
masklinn wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not though? Gifs are media, but they are not hyper media because they don't support hypertext (can't link to to other media). As such, they're ancillary sub-resources to hypermedia but not themselves hypermedia.

If you're going to get that picky (and please be aware I'm only doing this for the sake of the argument) media can never be hypermedia in the absence of the client. HTML opened in notepad is just text. Cat GIFs, rendered in the correct client, would absolutely be hypermedia (you could inline link data as QR codes, if you felt like being perverse). Hypermedia starts with the client, not with the file format.

I agree that a hypermedia can't act properly within the uniform interface constraint, without a hypermedia client, that is, you can't have a hypermedia system without a proper hypermedia client:

https://htmx.org/essays/hypermedia-clients/

https://hypermedia.systems/hypermedia-components/

On the other hand, there is a real difference between plain text and HTML (or HXML, don't shoot!) which is a subset of text with additional concepts layered on top of it. This is akin to how JSON (or XML) is not hypermedia, but can be used to create hypermedia such as Siren or HXML.

So I still think it makes sense to discuss if a media is or is not hypermedia without reference to the client, whereas it doesn't make sense to claim it is being used as hypermedia unless it is being consumed by a properly written hypermedia client. To make my thinking concrete, I believe Siren would continue to be hypermedia, even if it wasn't be consumed properly by a client, but then also you could not describe that pairing as a hypermedia system. (This is one reason I focus on the systemic nature of hypermedia, rather than solely on hypermedia formats)

Semantic nitpicking perhaps, but then hypermedia discussions appear to tend to invite this sort of thing.

Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#309

Post by guru4consulting »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #282
guru4consulting wrote: post #281

My product has the typical SPA front-end and API backend. I understand that with HTMX, those API backends would have to return HTML fragments instead of JSON data (or another server endpoint that returns HTML fragments). I have few questions with this HTMX approach: - We don't hire full-stack developers. Our UI/UX designers and web developers fully focus on the front-end (responsive for mobile/tablet/desktop, A/B tes…

If the FE/BE split is working well for you, then htmx isn't as compelling. It is more compelling when you have full-stack developers who can take ownership of entire features and shepherd them from start to finish, without needing to coordinate with another team to get the data/functionality they need. Here is an example of a fairly sophisticated application that was written in react, then moved to htmx with good res…

Thank you. Any idea on the impact of SEO for public facing websites using HTMX? Is it as simple as just rewriting URLs? React needs work arounds to overcome SEO issues.

Re: Is htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?

#310

Post by recursivedoubts »

guru4consulting wrote: post #309
recursivedoubts wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the FE/BE split is working well for you, then htmx isn't as compelling. It is more compelling when you have full-stack developers who can take ownership of entire features and shepherd them from start to finish, without needing to coordinate with another team to get the data/functionality they need. Here is an example of a fairly sophisticated application that was written in react, then moved to htmx with good res…

Thank you. Any idea on the impact of SEO for public facing websites using HTMX? Is it as simple as just rewriting URLs? React needs work arounds to overcome SEO issues.

If you use hx-boost (https://htmx.org/attributes/hx-boost/) for your nav, you shouldn't have issues w/ SEO.

You can get fancier for internal pages that aren't public facing, the search bar, etc.

Also consider the preload extension for faster nav:

https://htmx.org/extensions/preload/

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