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Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

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Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#301

Post by turquoisevar »

saiya-jin wrote: post #213
freedomben wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've asked similar questions before and am usually told that this is how Apple does things and it's what makes their users happy. It's in fact why they love and choose Apple. They trust Apple to make the right decisions, and this is in fact a big part of the value add of their products. This is much related to the walled garden approach. For example, ask about why sideloading should remain not an option at all, rathe…

I have to agree with this sentiment, I read it here on HN 'power' users more than once. Although most Apple users have no clue about what we discuss here, the part about actively wanting it is simply not true en masse. Needless to say that's not for me and I will probably keep sporting Androids (in my case I am happy with Samsung's top ultra offerings) since I actually use those added features, ie saving 500 bucks on…

Do your wife a favor and get her Wipr[0].

Sure it’s $1.99 but we support indie developers here on HN don’t we?

It’s a set it and forget it type of deal, no more ads in Safari.

0: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/wipr/id1030595027

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#302

Post by salawat »

dcdc123 wrote: post #257
heyoni wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This particular entitlement does not trigger any pop up and can’t be disabled by the user except by uninstalling the app.

Yes, I get that...I just meant his whole spiel about "not asking for permission being the norm". In the context of iOS permissions not asking is the exception.

More trying to enlighten the not yet enlightened to be on the look out for said behavior if they weren't already looking out for it. Also, with things like iOS entitlements, their entire purpose is to act as a permissions based contract. Where what I'm talking about comes into play is dropping in functionality that can be called if you know about it, but not making any attempts to advertise that you can.

Maybe not relevant in this particular case, but again, was more intended in the sense of a BOLO.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#303

Post by turquoisevar »

nequo wrote: post #19
mrpippy wrote: post #12

It’s worth noting that use of NEHotspotHelper requires a special entitlement (com.apple.developer.networking.HotspotHelper) that you have to apply for, and presumably Apple won’t grant unless your app has a legitimate need for it. That said, this maybe shows an incompatibility between Apple’s privacy strategy and “super-apps” like WeChat and AliPay. When a company shoves all functionality into one app, that app sudde…

> com.apple.developer.networking.HotspotHelper Where do you revoke this entitlement on iOS? Settings → Privacy & Security → Local Network? Or is this something else?

You can’t revoke entitlements, entitlements is the term used for developers who indicate that they intend to use a feature.

Users are asked for permissions and those permissions can be revoked. This entitlement doesn’t correspond with its own unique permission, either it works without permission from the user or it might be bundled into Local Network or Location Permissions.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#304

Post by q-base »

bloppe wrote: post #222
freedomben wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've asked similar questions before and am usually told that this is how Apple does things and it's what makes their users happy. It's in fact why they love and choose Apple. They trust Apple to make the right decisions, and this is in fact a big part of the value add of their products. This is much related to the walled garden approach. For example, ask about why sideloading should remain not an option at all, rathe…

This mentality is fascinating to me. In a sense, nobody owns an Apple device. It's more like renting: the landlord keeps a bunch of doors locked and has strict rules, but the place comes pre-furnished and includes millennial-grade amenities. I can see the appeal if you don't particularly care about owning a device, but it blows my mind that people become so dedicated to this way of living.

I love that your analogy hit me so hard that I came to question my iPhone SE. I think the main issue for me is that I have not found a better alternative elsewhere. There are some interesting locked down and privacy focused variants of Android, but I am not sure I could use them with the banking and personal ID apps that are almost "required" unless I have to jump through additional hoops daily.

But thought provoking analogy - and thanks for that!

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#305

Post by anileated »

lxgr wrote: post #254
anileated wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I used WeChat a few years ago and at that point it definitely asked for local network access (which is what this article is about; a mechanism for collecting SSIDs which can then later be correlated to locations). If there is an entitlement, it is as of yet unclear whether it means a consent dialog/privacy toggle or not. IIRC an entitlement only means you can ask for this sort of access, not get it automatically…

That’s not what that permission does. As mentioned in TFA, SSID scanning access requires an entitlement (granted by Apple), not a permission (granted by the user).

You are misunderstanding what entitlements are. An entitlement does not imply no consent from the user, in many cases all it gives is the ability to ask for that consent.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#306

Post by anileated »

lxgr wrote: post #270
anileated wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there was a VPN app I used that didn't have the "local network access" permission, but was still inexplicably able to get a list of wifi networks I connected to It is different from continuously getting a list of all SSIDs within your Wi-Fi range, even those you never connected to. This is what allows shady apps infer location (this, and massive databases of SSID matched to coordinates). What you described is also…

As far as I can tell, Wireguard does it the other way around (i.e. you provide it with a list of SSIDs you want to always enable VPN for, it provides that to the OS, and the OS then only tells the VPN that it needs to get connected). But according to this [1] post (by an Apple employee?), having an enabled VPN profile seems to indeed be opting the app in to receiving the current SSID without the location permission,…

I may have mixed up WireGuard versions, it does it on macOS but doesn’t on iOS (or this feature was removed).

Either way, being able to get a list of networks user connected to is unrelated to the feature under discussion.

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#308

Post by saiya-jin »

turquoisevar wrote: post #301
saiya-jin wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to agree with this sentiment, I read it here on HN 'power' users more than once. Although most Apple users have no clue about what we discuss here, the part about actively wanting it is simply not true en masse. Needless to say that's not for me and I will probably keep sporting Androids (in my case I am happy with Samsung's top ultra offerings) since I actually use those added features, ie saving 500 bucks on…

Do your wife a favor and get her Wipr[0]. Sure it’s $1.99 but we support indie developers here on HN don’t we? It’s a set it and forget it type of deal, no more ads in Safari. 0: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/wipr/id1030595027

Thank you for this useful info

Re: Apple allows some iOS apps to track user locations via lists of nearby SSIDs

#309

Post by tinus_hn »

dang wrote: post #183
tinus_hn wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in the real world SSIDs are a very coarse and not very reliable way of locating devices. You are exaggerating.

Can you please make your substantive points without swipes? (like "Back in the real world", "you are exaggerating", "no you're fantasizing" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38710396 , and so on). This kind of thing is against HN's rules and also spoils the substantive points you're trying to make. If you'd make your substantive points thoughtfully instead, we'd appreciate it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsgu…

No, I’m through. As mentioned elsewhere, the way you built your site makes it impossible to have a discussion if you disagree with the mob.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38725130

If you really want ‘intellectual curiosity’ and ‘discussion’ you will have to change your and your colleagues stance on using the voting system as disagree buttons and enforce it, and stop the part where people are blocked if they disagree with the mob, because everyone is pressing the disagree button (and some people the ‘super disagree’ flag button).

Of course the way you run the site is up to you but if you do not change it you will get to enjoy a boring agreefest with only hivemind opinions, endless fistbumping around rehashed ideas.

And fine if you have opinions on how I word my thoughts, but there’s also the other side of others calling disagreeing trolling and implying that you think something doesn’t work as well as they think it does means you’re too stupid to understand it. Action leads to reaction and fairness demands that calling me out means you also have to call out the other side. The other side that downdisagreed my original post, which you can’t argue is inflammatory, so far that it gets hidden and I get blocked from responding. While it is a valid point, and it ultimately gets agreed to 1 again. I don’t care about the points but you can’t have a discussion if you can’t respond to people.

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