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More product, fewer product managers

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Re: More product, fewer product managers

#301

Post by starkparker »

ethanbond wrote: post #205
starkparker wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they can't use git and find project tracking software too complex to understand, this is what regularly happens. Either this or charts and tables in Miro/Figma boards.

This is too cynical IMO. Documents are actually the correct tool for some kinds of thought and communication. Issues are different, Miro/Figma boards are different.

> Issues are different, Miro/Figma boards are different.

In practice over the last year, I've seen product managers make Gantt charts in Miro as the source of truth for a project and run backend engineering retros in Figma. These were done redundantly with our issue tracking system; my cross-functional team had to create issues in our tracker based on the Miro and Figma boards to actually manage our own work, then duplicate the updates on those boards to communicate them up to product.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#302

Post by aprdm »

ath3nd wrote: post #85
alistairSH wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that scenario, who is driving product requirements? For example, in an area with strict financial/regulatory compliance laws, are you expecting every engineer to be an expert in those laws? And have contacts at the government agencies implementing those policies?

> In that scenario, who is driving product requirements? The developer teams, who else? You build it, you need to know what you are building, right? I find it fascinating that the dev community that gobbled so easily "You build it, you run it", doesn't question why we are not being trusted with knowing and determining what to be built in the first place. > For example, in an area with strict financial/regulatory comp…

The PMs I’ve worked with have had many decades of experience in the area of their product and knew much more than our dev team about the business domain

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#303

Post by aprdm »

ath3nd wrote: post #291
satvikpendem wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devs generally don't want to talk to the experts, they want to build. Talking means more meetings, which takes away from building. Ironic, as without knowing what to build, they can build nothing.

Ah, yes, avoid meetings with experts so you have to wait until a non expert who talked to the experts tells you what to build! Pesky, asocial developers, avoiding talk at any cost! It's a well established fact developers love building things so much and hate wasting their time with useless meetings! The hero PM saves the developers so much thinking by being brave and talking with the scary outsiders. The PM's selfles…

The assertiveness of your replies implies to me that you never worked in big companies

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#304

Post by flappyeagle »

cutemonster wrote: post #255
jsdwarf wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds good in theory, but what if your company decides to reduce investments in the spreadsheet product and instead transfer the product team into a much faster growing product segment, e.g. SAP integrations? Then the perfectly qualified PMs start from square one again. IMHO it's an essential skill for a PM to familiarize him/herself with a new domain in short time. It also offers cross-pollination / the chance to d…

Note: "were HIGHLY technical". They had the ability to learn technical things once, then they can do it again. (In a short time? Not so easy to find out until after you've hired them, in any case?)

The time constraint matters. A lot.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#305

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

myownpetard wrote: post #232
ath3nd wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand, how do you handle prioritization decisions: if you have a 100+ customers that all want something, how do you create understanding of all needs, how do you distill that to an integrated roadmap, and how do you align the roadmap prioritization decisions across 20+ teams? That does seem to require at least a PHD in prioritization or a totally real role like a Product Manager indeed! A naive approac…

Almost every PM I've worked with had an engineering degree and/or previously worked as an engineer. This "Josh" sounds like a strawman or you've had bad luck with PMs in the past. It also sounds like you have a PM on your team, but they actually have the title of SWE or Eng. Mgr. They probably spend > 50% of their time on the above listed responsibilities rather than engineering. Hopefully they don't get docked in th…

most PM's will have worked There's a world of difference between a senior developer and what these guys are, and you want your senior developers making these calls.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#306

Post by satvikpendem »

ath3nd wrote: post #291
satvikpendem wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devs generally don't want to talk to the experts, they want to build. Talking means more meetings, which takes away from building. Ironic, as without knowing what to build, they can build nothing.

Ah, yes, avoid meetings with experts so you have to wait until a non expert who talked to the experts tells you what to build! Pesky, asocial developers, avoiding talk at any cost! It's a well established fact developers love building things so much and hate wasting their time with useless meetings! The hero PM saves the developers so much thinking by being brave and talking with the scary outsiders. The PM's selfles…

> It's a fact developers love building things so much and not wasting their time with useless meetings!

Correct. Most engineers dislike meetings, so much that they complain that they don't get enough focus time in the day and are constantly interrupted.

> like autistic children that would flip out as soon as somebody touches their crayons

No one said this, you're arguing against a strawman. But even still, how many devs do you know that willingly want to talk to customers?

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#307

Post by charlie0 »

015a wrote: post #242

One thing I've been thinking more-and-more about recently: People are unique; there's no doubt about that. But how much of "the product manager does product management" is genuinely just the title they're assigned, versus some innate capability they were born with? I'm becoming more agreeable to the notion that, at least in product development: most people should be doing more things. People can and should have speci…

I 100% agree in a smaller company personal agency is huge. Setting the issue of scaling aside, it's very difficult finding people who just get sh*t done and problem solve, no matter what and where in the org. A big part is this has to be built into the org from inception. The other part is that training and encouragement must come from the top. I think more people can grow into having greater agency, but most don't because they tried and got no support and failed, or they actually succeeded but weren't rewarded and decided the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#308

Post by charlie0 »

pitched wrote: post #244
015a wrote: post #242

One thing I've been thinking more-and-more about recently: People are unique; there's no doubt about that. But how much of "the product manager does product management" is genuinely just the title they're assigned, versus some innate capability they were born with? I'm becoming more agreeable to the notion that, at least in product development: most people should be doing more things. People can and should have speci…

People with a lot of personal agency in this way will also slow things down by expecting rational decisions from management and asking questions when they aren’t. I think this makes for a fantastic partner, peer or co-worker but a horrible employee. So I don’t think it’s too surprising that most hiring managers will be actively filtering them out. As someone who does very highly value this way of thinking though, how…

So the alternative is for management to be surrounded by "yes" people?

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#309

Post by tinodb »

ath3nd wrote: post #220
ako wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand, how do you handle prioritization decisions: if you have a 100+ customers that all want something, how do you create understanding of all needs, how do you distill that to an integrated roadmap, and how do you align the roadmap prioritization decisions across 20+ teams? How do you organize updating of documentation, training materials, enablement of support, pricing decision, updating of price list…

> I don't understand, how do you handle prioritization decisions: if you have a 100+ customers that all want something, how do you create understanding of all needs, how do you distill that to an integrated roadmap, and how do you align the roadmap prioritization decisions across 20+ teams? That does seem to require at least a PHD in prioritization or a totally real role like a Product Manager indeed! A naive approac…

> By analyzing competition, thinking forward and having a vision. Are developers supposed to only think on the benefits of mysql vs postgres?

No but they are vastly different expertises. And in the time that engineers make decisions on databases, architecture etc, the PM can already do discovery work. Surely you can find engineers that also enjoy this, and are good at it, but someone has to wear to do it.

You time and time again portray the PM role as a junior thing. But it is quite hard to keep everyone focussed on “is this really the quickest way we can deliver value”? You don’t need a degree for it, but you need a certain level of confidence and seniority in most teams.

Saying that having a PM is like treating devs as kids is the same as stating that having a marketing department is the opposite of treating sales like adults. Shouldn’t they be allowed to find their own leads?

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#310

Post by pitched »

charlie0 wrote: post #308
pitched wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with a lot of personal agency in this way will also slow things down by expecting rational decisions from management and asking questions when they aren’t. I think this makes for a fantastic partner, peer or co-worker but a horrible employee. So I don’t think it’s too surprising that most hiring managers will be actively filtering them out. As someone who does very highly value this way of thinking though, how…

So the alternative is for management to be surrounded by "yes" people?

If that wasn’t pretty widely true, would the meme exist?
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