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The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#301

Post by invalidname »

brucethemoose2 wrote: post #202

History suggests expunging determined, fortified, modern militants embedded in a civilian population never goes well. The expunger loses or gets a pyrrhic victory, even with a huge economic advantage. Honestly, however dire the need, I don't see what Israel is thinking. If Israel, the US, Europe, China and Russia all held hands and invaded the Gaza strip together, they still probably couldn't route out Hamas.

I don't think that's true and I don't think Israel has a choice. It won't get every single Hamas operative but it can get most of them and leave the rest in hiding. Israel needs to prove that it *can* do that otherwise it won't have the deterrence factor that keeps it safe.

The question is what will fill the void after Israel withdraws. Biden discussed something that sounded a lot like a marshal plan which I hope will help "kill" the Hamas by showing the Palestinians a better way of life and hopefully a Palestinian state.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#302

Post by YZF »

bhouston wrote: post #286
YZF wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Al Jazeera is a Qatari state-owned Arabic-language news television network" Excuse me if I'm not going to take that as a source. Israel only provided some fraction of water and electricity to Gaza and is under no obligation to keep providing that in a state of war. Do you have other examples of countries at war when one side provides the other with water and electricity? Look- you're right that Israel has asked peop…

YZF wrote: > Al Jazeera is a Qatari state-owned Arabic-language news television network" You don't have to. Amnesty has written about water in Israel-Palestinian as well, here is a report: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occu... > Israel only provided some fraction of water and electricity to Gaza and is under no obligation to keep providing that in a state of war. Israel is actually the one w…

How can Israel force Egypt to do anything? There's a border- on one side Egypt and on the other side Gaza? Israel's not there. What is true is that Israel's agreement is e.g. needed not to bomb that aid so likely that's some of the discussion going on, which is not quite the same thing.

If Egypt allowed, and the UN drove aid trucks in, Israel would not bomb the UN. So aid isn't getting in because Egypt doesn't let it in.

How much water do you think the Hamas has stockpiled in their tunnels for the scenario where they have to continue fighting from there for months? Just asking. How much gas that could be used for desalination? Food? How about asking them to share a little bit with their citizens?

Also please tell me why can't the foreign nationals on the Gazan side leave Gaza into Egypt? Is Israel also preventing them from leaving?

All that said, the civilian population of Gaza should have access to water and should generally be protected as much as possible under the circumstances. I do not support withholding water from them.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#303

Post by jacquesm »

YZF wrote: post #288
jacquesm wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bit that seems to have really pissed me off is when the Hawks decided that they didn't want peace and Rabin was murdered. We got that close to stopping this or at least to seriously de-escalating it. That's when I realized it's not just one side that wants this conflict to be perpetrated, there are elements on both sides that see their case strengthened the longer the conflict lasts and the more lives are lost. B…

There's extra context which is the suicide bombing campaign by Hamas after Rabin was murdered. That is the true cause of the collapse of the Oslo process and the shift in Israeli public opinion from the majority supporting a two state solution of some form to the the majority believing Israel can never co-exist with the Palestinian Arabs.

Yes, that's true, but that wasn't what killed Rabin. If Rabin had not been murdered I would have put a good chance on the Oslo process becoming ratified and that at least would have established some way of de-escalation. Just like in Northern Ireland: you need goodwill on both sides to make progress, regardless of what happened before.

The fact that both of those conflicts are at the root religious conflicts is probably not a coincidence. Believing Israel can not co-exist with the Palestinian Arabs is as good as bankrupting the state of Israel or accepting eternal conflict, neither of which are good outcomes. This won't last.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#304

Post by DoreenMichele »

invalidname wrote: post #282
DoreenMichele wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another person who doesn't understand what's going on, I'm seeing articles that indicate they are effectively trying to drive people out and force them to leave and move to other countries and not come back and trying to use low cost tactics like telling them to evacuate to limit actual cost as well as international pushback. And some people are saying "That's a big fat nope."

Historically in 1948 Palestinians left their home and due to ongoing wars were never able to come back. Effectively they lost their home. They're afraid this is happening again. Honestly, I don't know if it is or if it isn't. But what can Israel do here? Israel said the area they will target which puts its soldiers at risk. In the interest of avoiding civilian casualties. Israel already withdrew settlements from Gaza…

Historically in 1948 Palestinians left their home and due to ongoing wars were never able to come back. Effectively they lost their home. They're afraid this is happening again.

Yes, that's what I've been reading. Various nations do not want to welcome "temporary refugees" because they feel they've seen this before and it will not be temporary. There will be no going back if that option is accepted.

I have no idea what "should" be done. I'm still trying to understand the situation.

There are deep and bitter roots. All parties to the conflict have grievances and there are no obvious solutions to seemingly anyone, especially not some sort of win-win talking points solutions.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#305

Post by jacquesm »

YZF wrote: post #285
catlover76 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how that poster is saying anything anti-semitic? His criticisms seem pretty practical and grounded in the reality of the situation. Personally, I don't think any country has the "right" to exist. Neither the Israelis nor Palestinians have any moral right to a country, and I think that the notion that "nations", which are often ahistorical fabrications, have the right to self-determination is bullshit.

I didn't really say anything about the poster. I'm just trying to address the question and how Jews or Israelis likely look at this. I agree with you "right to exist" is bullshit. A country exists or doesn't exist and it may also cease to exist if it can't remain a country. That's about it.

> Jews

Not all Jews though.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#306

Post by tachyons »

YZF wrote: post #284
tachyons wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are definitely valid criticisms against Hamas, But how does that even remotely justify Israel? How does armed gang storming your house and killing you is different than bombing? Will it be less painful death? You want to take the claims about rape and mutilation though there weren't any proofs given till date, but doubt the number of people killed on Gaza despite all the names are published? If your only soluti…

I'm not sure what you're suggesting. That Hamas can commit a raid into Israel and then stay in Gaza with impunity because Israel is not allowed to bomb Gaza? That makes no sense. What do you propose Israel do with this "terrorist" (why the double quotes?) organization? https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-forensic-t... The word genocide is used way to often in this conflict. My dictionary says "the delib…

Used double quotes because neither IDF nor Hamas are declared as terrorist organisation by UN. That doesn't the actions of these organisations though.

If Israel can kill someone in Iran with targeted missile, they are capable of doing the same in Palestine as well. Instead of doing that, they are carpet bombing Palestine, and they are totally aware that only handful of "Hamas" members gets killed in their attack.

They also de-humanise entire Palestinians, not just Hamas stright from Hitlar's playbook and that makes it genocide. It is not a fancy word, it is an unfortunate reality.

Also you are shifting blame of a failed government in Israel to people of Palestine

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#307

Post by hackerlight »

paulvnickerson wrote: post #72
culi wrote: post #33

Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. Sure Hamas, with the help of the media framing of this as a 9/11, gave them a good Casus belli, but Israel has always been good at finding Casus bellis. When Israel again invaded Gaza in 2014, they killed 2,310 people, 70% civilians and lost 67 soldiers in return. Even more destructive was the 7-10k homes completely demolished and 87k…

> Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. This number comes from Hamas, so I would take it with a grain of salt. Hamas intentionally uses its civilians as shields for their military equipment. Here is a quote from Hamas's 1988 charter: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. T…

Historically, the Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza has provided accurate numbers of civilian deaths. Third-party estimates by the UN and NGOs have always matched their numbers within a 10% margin of error.

They did lie about 500 people dying due to a parking lot being blown up, though. It's a stain on their credibility. But how much of a stain? Do we disregard their previous track record because of it?

I mean, it's possible that they see this current moment as judgement day, so they have decided to use up all of their historically built-up goodwill and start lying for info ops purposes, which would be an understandable strategy. On the other hand, the numbers they're giving don't appear unrealistic, and John Kirby has said that the US does not dispute that it's "in the thousands". So some number between 1000 and 7000 appears correct, and I would err more towards 4000-7000.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#308

Post by invalidname »

jacquesm wrote: post #300
invalidname wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this Israels fault at this point? There are a lot of historic things that are its fault, but at this point the Hamas left it no choice whatsoever. It won't accept anything less than the destruction of Israel. It still holds kidnapped children and elderly civilians. It's still firing missiles into Israel as of today... The Palestinian people got squeezed in the middle because of that and it's terrible. What mor…

Yes, Hamas is committing atrocities. Yes, Israel is committing atrocities as well. Both sides have elements that seem to want to drive this conflict ever forward. You end this conflict without a way to control the extremist elements on both sides, and given that Hamas has - successfully, which they shouldn't have been able to do in the first place - attacked Israel and now Israel will respond with even more violence…

> Yes, Hamas is committing atrocities. Yes, Israel is committing atrocities as well.

NO!

None of that crap. Israel isn't great as a democracy and its current government is the absolute worst possible... It's still not in the "both" camp by a mile.

It is held to a higher standard than the Hamas (as it should) and it is far "cleaner" in its bombing campaign than any recent western country (sure, mostly the USA). This is despite continued Hamas missiles against civilians and their holding of kidnapped children as young as 3 years of age!

> Both sides have elements that seem to want to drive this conflict ever forward.

No. The Hamas attacked. Up to that point Israel was increasing the number of Gazans allowed into Israel for work etc. Moving to relax hostilities. The Hamas has no interest in any movement towards civility or peace. There's literally no choice.

The only way to finish this is to get every single Hamas operative. Otherwise this will happen again. Hopefully this will end up as good for the Palestinians and as part of a road for the moderates among them to rise. That's why Biden has spent a lot of time in Israel talking about the day after the war. That's very important and can be a good thing overall for both sides.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#309

Post by bhouston »

YZF wrote: post #302
bhouston wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YZF wrote: > Al Jazeera is a Qatari state-owned Arabic-language news television network" You don't have to. Amnesty has written about water in Israel-Palestinian as well, here is a report: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occu... > Israel only provided some fraction of water and electricity to Gaza and is under no obligation to keep providing that in a state of war. Israel is actually the one w…

How can Israel force Egypt to do anything? There's a border- on one side Egypt and on the other side Gaza? Israel's not there. What is true is that Israel's agreement is e.g. needed not to bomb that aid so likely that's some of the discussion going on, which is not quite the same thing. If Egypt allowed, and the UN drove aid trucks in, Israel would not bomb the UN. So aid isn't getting in because Egypt doesn't let it…

> How can Israel force Egypt to do anything? There's a border- on one side Egypt and on the other side Gaza? Israel's not there. What is true is that Israel's agreement is e.g. needed not to bomb that aid so likely that's some of the discussion going on, which is not quite the same thing.

Israeli explicitly ordered a total blockage of Gaza:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/9/israel-announces-to...

> If Egypt allowed, and the UN drove aid trucks in, Israel would not bomb the UN. So aid isn't getting in because Egypt doesn't let it in.

Are You sure? Israel repeated bombed the Rafah crossing this month as a warning to keep this blockage in place:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/10/alarm-as-israel-ag...

Israel only relented when Biden said to let aid in - that is reported in this article:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israel-to-allow-egypt-to-...

> Also please tell me why can't the foreign nationals on the Gazan side leave Gaza into Egypt? Is Israel also preventing them from leaving?

No, that is Egypt I believe. With regards to mass outflows, Egypt is worried that Israel will push the Palestinians in Gaza out and they will never return. That is problematic for Egypt for other reasons, such as Hamas's relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood. For a few foreign nationals, I am not sure the reasoning.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#310

Post by YZF »

tachyons wrote: post #294
YZF wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Al Jazeera is a Qatari state-owned Arabic-language news television network" Excuse me if I'm not going to take that as a source. Israel only provided some fraction of water and electricity to Gaza and is under no obligation to keep providing that in a state of war. Do you have other examples of countries at war when one side provides the other with water and electricity? Look- you're right that Israel has asked peop…

There is no surprise in not taking journalists as source from a side who murder journalists. But let's keep that aside - Why does Palestines are restricted from using their own water? - Why does Israely military rules apply on Palestine? - How does Palestinian citizens are responsible for the failure of Israely government of precise and targeted attack? - Why does Israely government including the prime minister dehum…

Are we talking about the west bank or Gaza here?

- It is true that some Palestinians in the west bank are treated very badly including taking over their water wells. There's a long story or a short story there. We have a right wing government in Israel that supports right wing settlers in the west bank and is trying to kill any hope of peace with Palestinians.

- Israel occupied the west bank from Jordan in 1967. The status of that land was never settled and therefore it is still considered (by Israel and the world) to be an occupied territory and is under military rule. So that's why this area is under military rule. This is international law btw. In the various peace agreements nobody wants this piece of and back. Israel did not annex it. And there's been no agreement with anyone (e.g. Palestinians) about it.

- I think we're talking Gaza again. Are you asking why are Palestinians in Gaza responsible for Israel's failure to protect its citizens from them? I'm not sure how to address this seriously.

- This isn't an excuse but everyone in Israel is in shock/PTSD at the moment. It's a small place and everyone is personally impacted. Calling Hamas sub-human isn't right. They're very human in the worst possible way. Somehow I don't think the analogy between the Jewish people in Europe and Hamas really holds though. I don't recall the Jewish people going around with RPGs and assault rifles and butchering Europeans.

- Hamas is never going to return those hostages and the price would be unacceptable. Israel also has to be concerned about the next round of attacks and hostages. Some of Hamas's leadership today are people that were exchanged for a single Israeli hostage, Gilad Shalit, who was exchanged for 1000 Palestinians, many of which were in jail for killing Israelis. There is no scenario here unfortunately where Israel can get security and the return of the hostages. If there was there wouldn't be a war right now.

And yeah, these recent events aren't exactly a win for humanity.

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