80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans • Hacker News Board

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#301

Post by berkes » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 10:00 AM UTC

mkl95 wrote: post #58

troupe wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it funny that when people were required to be home, employers talked about what great productivity they were getting with people at home. Then when it isn't required anymore, they want everyone back in the office for...productivity. My guess is that most employers really have no way to measure if an employee is being productive or not so managers are just reporting what makes them look good...and now we are ba…

> My guess is that most employers really have no way to measure if an employee is being productive or not so managers are just reporting what makes them look good...and now we are back to where managers will look better with lots of people running around the office. My guess is that CEOs and VCs have some obscure reason to force people back into the office. Perhaps related to real estate, especially considering how h…

The article mentions "sunken cost [fallacy]" as a driver to fill the offices again. Where office space is paid for, and hence has to be filled or else this investment is wasted.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#302

Post by cmrdporcupine » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 10:01 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #153

I have a new conspiracy theory on RTO in Big Tech. Much has been said about commercial real estate. But I think getting highly capable people to work hard for you is a difficult problem & something tech executives put a lot of thought into. If you don't pay people enough, someone else will. But if you pay them too much, they'll become financially independent. Mid six figures is an objectively life-changing amount of…

The last 40 years of economic policy has been about aggressively loosening restrictions on capital movement, while keeping in place or strengthening restrictions on the movement of labour.

The WFO wave was an disruption in that cycle. But only for the professional class. It won't last, at least not for the lower end of the market.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#303

Post by FirmwareBurner » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 10:04 AM UTC

rconti wrote: post #203

water9 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Acting like all humans will work equally as hard when they are supervised vs unsupervised is completely naïve

My last 3 managers (since 2020) have all been in a different office than my "home" office.

That's only if you work at big companies with several offices where teams are distributed anyway, so in-office work was remote-work anyway except done in the office instead of in your home. Big international companies were already basically remote even before the pandemic and had plenty of inefficiencies already built in.

What I notices small companies in my area (here in Europe) with only one office, put a lot of value in having all employees coming to the office so they can react faster and cooperate easier than distributed teams, rather than saving on rent and letting everyone WFH 100% of the time from wherever they are, seeing it as one of their strengths over big distributed companies where things move slower.

While there's some truth to their arguments about the response time and cooperation in the office, I find they're selecting for people who drink their cool-aid and buy into "the mission" of the company instead of seeing the work as a simple transaction of "I give you my time and mental labor, you give me money, period".

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#304

Post by nprateem » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 10:04 AM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #187

system16 wrote: post #16

My company forced a three day a week hybrid, despite major pushback from the employees and a lot of resignations after it was implemented. They’re now trying to nudge people to come in every day. On Mondays and Fridays the CEO comes in, pacing around, unamused the big fancy space is sitting empty. All the executives want to force full time RTO but of course they come in late (if at all) or leave early whenever they w…

A friend of mine works at a company that keeps pushing full time RTO. One of the big arguments is the CEO is always there every single day. “Setting the tone“. For an hour or two. The rest of the time he works from home. You can guess what the employees think of that. It is absolutely not a secret. The big believer doesn’t follow his own rules.

But even if he did, so what? Someone with skin in the game on life changing money or equity will have different motivations to someone just doing a job to get by.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#305

Post by pseudosavant » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 10:05 AM UTC

re-thc wrote: post #199

deaddodo wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open offices are the literal reason (after commuting/traffic) that I no longer want to go into the office. My work doesn't require a ton of person:person engagement and it's much easier for me to just zone out in my own headspace to do it. When I was required in the office, I would just wear headphones to avoid distractions, but I would have to deal with 2-3hrs of driving/day on top of it. This meant that my employer…

> When I was required in the office, I would just wear headphones to avoid distractions That doesn't work for everyone. Some offices are louder than headphones and some people come around tapping your shoulders regardless.

Totally agree. It is also bad for your hearing to have to wear loud headphones all the time to drown out a loud work environment. Your ears do wear out.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#306

Post by berkes » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 10:14 AM UTC

tester756 wrote: post #55

ChuckMcM wrote: post #39

I had lunch, not too long ago, with a senior executive of a silicon valley tech company that was moaning about how much of a pain it was to get people to come into the office and how it felt like things would never return to the way they were. And I told them I actually knew of a way to get 100% of their employees to return to the office happily. When they asked what this magic bullet was I said, "Go back to offices,…

So, you found simple solution for very complicated dynamic and you actually believe you solved this problem? I don't care about offices with doors. Sure, they're better, but still it doesn't solve my issues - I care about commute - time and money, especially time. I've been commuting like 3h / day before WFH and I don't want to go back unless you pay me at least 2.5x

I also don't care about offices with doors.

For me the main reason is I want to keep living where I live. Village near a small city in western Europe. Cheap living, lots of nature. But no big tech around. The closest "hub" with some tech corps is too far to commute daily.

There's no way I'm selling my house to go live in a shitty noisy, overpriced appartment in or near Amsterdam Paris, Berlin or whatever and spend double the current amount on groceries, dining etc. I imagine in the US this is way more the case even.

So if you insist on RTO, regardless of doors, you'll miss out on a large group of individuals who live too far away to commute.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#307

Post by jonjon16 » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 10:15 AM UTC

I think I’m in the majority when I say that I prefer WFH but honestly, working ONLY from home is not something I like. I can work for a week or two in remote but then gotta spend a day or two in office. Naturally, it depends on a number of variables, like personal character and the relationship with the other employees but in general I think most people fall in my category. Having the option for both is the best possible solution.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#308

Post by wruza » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 10:17 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #191

Alupis wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of nuance that isn't discussed in the WFH circles. I don't believe the cynical claims some offer of VC's losing out on real estate deals, or mid-level managers needing to boost their butts-in-seats numbers or whatever. For some, perhaps, but on average? What percentage of long-distance relationships work out long-term? Do you become more or less close with friends after they move out of town? Do you sti…

The social animal bullshit is a myth. You can see it around you everyday. People in public places everywhere spending time on their phones rather than talking to people around them

Maybe it’s not a myth, in a sense that without a phone they had to interact and learn how to do it, but that is too bad compared to what phones give for free.

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#309

Post by FirmwareBurner » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 10:18 AM UTC

0xblinq wrote: post #171

deaddodo wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open offices are the literal reason (after commuting/traffic) that I no longer want to go into the office. My work doesn't require a ton of person:person engagement and it's much easier for me to just zone out in my own headspace to do it. When I was required in the office, I would just wear headphones to avoid distractions, but I would have to deal with 2-3hrs of driving/day on top of it. This meant that my employer…

The headphones thing reminds me of a big events ticketing company I worked for that, when people complained about noise, distractions, etc they came up with the amazing solution of using your health and wellness budget to buy noise cancelling headphones. Most full of bullshit company I’ve ever worked for.

"You guys had a health and wellness budget?!"

Re: 80% of bosses say they regret earlier return-to-office plans

#310

Post by dougmwne » Sat, Aug 12, 2023, 10:19 AM UTC

csomar wrote: post #208

closeparen wrote: post #153

I have a new conspiracy theory on RTO in Big Tech. Much has been said about commercial real estate. But I think getting highly capable people to work hard for you is a difficult problem & something tech executives put a lot of thought into. If you don't pay people enough, someone else will. But if you pay them too much, they'll become financially independent. Mid six figures is an objectively life-changing amount of…

It's not a conspiracy theory, it's how the system works. You are taxed on pretty much all of your income either from the state, the landlord, the credit card company or the lifestyle obligations that stems from the area you are living in. > And that's right where they want you. This is the part where we diverge, and I think where people confuse emerging phenomena for conspiracy. There is no one orchestrating this.

This is absolutely being orchestrated, right out in the open. OP’s entire post is fundamentally about the balance of power between labor and capital. The Fed’s stated goal is to cool the labor market so that wage growth will calm down. In other words, the Fed thinks labor is too strong, calls too many of the shots in negotiations and so wants employees to be more desperate so that their employers will have the upper hand.