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Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

theatlantic.com

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Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#301

Post by darth_avocado »

toomim wrote: post #249
darth_avocado wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with the sentiment that drugs should be treated like we treat other addictions like alcohol. Drugs should be decriminalized, anti social criminal behavior should stay criminalized. If I’m drunk and pee in public or assault someone, I’ll go to jail. That is what should happen if I do it under the influence of drugs. The one difference though between alcohol and some of the drugs is potency and how qu…

Driving drunk is illegal because you're likely to kill someone, and then it'll be too late to say "let's just prosecute the crime of manslaughter, and not prevent future manslaughters by prosecuting drunkenness in the car." In the same way, we should make it illegal to do drugs in situations where you are likely to cause irreparable harm. If we legalize drugs, let's create safe situations to do so. Many drugs are bei…

Legalization and decriminalization are two different things. I am all for decriminalizing. From a personal viewpoint, I don’t think drugs should be legalized.

And as far as the legal administration etc., that already exists in SF and it has had a poor track record of helping people.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#302

Post by seadan83 »

styren wrote: post #241
GeoAtreides wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to strongly support people getting fat. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in the US has made me think differently. Most people who get fat eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll say the nu…

Not sure what point you're trying to make here? Policymaking to limit access to unhealthy food isn't particularly controversial and if there weren't more pressing issues were I live I'd love for politicians to push it further.

Limiting access to any kind of food AFAIK is extremely controversial!

For starters there are the massive astro-turf campaigns that make a lot of noise. Beyond this, food regulation is catnip for the culture wars.

> Taxes on sugar‐sweetened beverages reduce consumption, but a strong public backlash holds that they compromise consumers’ liberty, freedom, and autonomy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6916313/#:~:tex....

Recall when there was a hint that Biden would limit hamburgers? (This idea was a bad extrapolation, nobody was proposing it as law - but nonetheless the mere mentioned brewed a holy-shit storm of foaming at the mouth outrage): - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/conservatives-beef-with-bi... - https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/202... - https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/04/26/republicans...

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#303

Post by GeoAtreides »

styren wrote: post #241
GeoAtreides wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to strongly support people getting fat. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in the US has made me think differently. Most people who get fat eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll say the nu…

Not sure what point you're trying to make here? Policymaking to limit access to unhealthy food isn't particularly controversial and if there weren't more pressing issues were I live I'd love for politicians to push it further.

But nobody would propose making sugar illegal and putting people that eat sugar in jail.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#304

Post by nemo44x »

fragmede wrote: post #203
nemo44x wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't follow at all. People who eat poorly and/or don't exercise are not a drain on society like drug addicts sleeping on the street, stealing to fund their addiction, and contributing nothing. There's big differences and it's not even really nuanced. It's obvious these are different things. Saying that we should encourage healthy lifestyles.

A food addict doesn't hold up a corner store to get their fix in a pack of candy, but their costs to the healthcare system are significant. The estimated annual medical cost of obesity in the United States was nearly $173 billion in 2019 dollars. Medical costs for adults who had obesity were $1,861 higher than medical costs for people with healthy weight*. High functioning drug addicts contribute plenty to society, m…

When you’re passed out in the streets laying in your own shit then your business has become my business and we shouldn’t encourage that. You just keep comparing unrelated things.

You support the government encouraging (via incentives) drug addicts in the streets.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#305

Post by chaosharmonic »

etc-hosts wrote: post #219
brightlancer wrote: post #186

Rubbish. Folks made the exact same arguments about alcohol and marijuana. Specifically with alcohol, anyone can walk into a treatment center without fear that they'll be arrested for the mere _use_ of a substance. (Marijuana has very low risk and rates of addiction, physical or psychological.) If "hard" drugs are legalized, then they will likely be treated the same as alcohol and pot and tobacco: highly regulated, so…

> taxing the legal pot industry so highly that it was miles cheaper to buy stuff illegally no the corner the legal pot industry's problem is it's impossible for it to turn a profit. they can't deduct operating expenses from their tax liability like other businesses can, because of federal law. items like rent, payroll. they also can't use the same systems of credit management and bank accounts, because of federal law…

The bank accounts thing also makes them bigger targets for theft, because of all the extra cash that stores end up handling when they can't use standard payment methods.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#306

Post by FormerBandmate »

toomim wrote: post #249
darth_avocado wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with the sentiment that drugs should be treated like we treat other addictions like alcohol. Drugs should be decriminalized, anti social criminal behavior should stay criminalized. If I’m drunk and pee in public or assault someone, I’ll go to jail. That is what should happen if I do it under the influence of drugs. The one difference though between alcohol and some of the drugs is potency and how qu…

Driving drunk is illegal because you're likely to kill someone, and then it'll be too late to say "let's just prosecute the crime of manslaughter, and not prevent future manslaughters by prosecuting drunkenness in the car." In the same way, we should make it illegal to do drugs in situations where you are likely to cause irreparable harm. If we legalize drugs, let's create safe situations to do so. Many drugs are bei…

For PCP that’s basically everything. For weed that’s basically nothing (although you shouldn’t drive high)

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#307

Post by deepsun »

tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

Can you make the same argument for children?

Children don't know the world yet, cannot contain their urges, and can get their brain chemistry permanently altered after trying heroin.

Now here's the trick -- all adults are children, just older. Some can contain the emotions better than others.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#308

Post by chrisweekly »

tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

"Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults."

Many drugs are incredibly dangerous, addictive and harmful, but that's still a wild overstatement.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#309

Post by chronofar »

hcks wrote: post #289
chronofar wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not sure what the answer is but just waving a wand and making hard drugs legal is not it. Make them actually legal (and thus more safe), tax them heavily, use a portion of said taxation to educate properly and then support and rehabilitate those who need it. Don't allow unsafe activities in public places that cause an unsafe environment. This really isn't that complicated, we've just been under the spell of prohibi…

Yeah, it's not complicated when you can make up stuff with 0 evidence and have no responsability anyway.

What did I make up and what did I say that requires evidence? And what responsibility do you imagine I’d require to have the opinion I relayed?

Of course nothing is simple if given a close enough look, but there are also rather straightforward solutions here such that we shouldn’t feel just totally stumped about what to do.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#310

Post by epolanski »

kouru225 wrote: post #155
tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

How does this compare to Portugal’s wild success when it comes to decriminalizing hard drugs? Seems like SF is a way less useful example.

It backlashed in Portugal in recent years actually.
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