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Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

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Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#301

Post by freeAgent »

btown wrote: post #162

From the spec author, in 2022 [0]: > I decided to make this an app in the end. This is where my costs started wracking up. I had to pay for a second hand macbook pro to build an iOS app. Apple’s strategy with this is obvious, and it clearly works, but it still greatly upsets me that I couldn’t just build an app with my linux laptop. If I want the app to persist for longer than a month, and to make it easy for friends…

This is especially surprising coming from a Linux user who presumably understands the desire to have a device that runs code one can read, write, compile, execute, and share freely and without needing to receive approval from a Big Tech gatekeeper.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#302

Post by lxgr »

Renaud wrote: post #281
PedroBatista wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who has been mismanaged for at least a decade and depends on Google to pay their bills.. I'm a FF user since the early 00's and Firefox will mostly not go away because Google has an interest in using it against monopoly accusations but the reality is bleak.. And the reality is these people ( Google in this case ) are so far removed from any moral compass about the Web ( at least what most people here think of "the We…

None of that should prevent anyone from using Firefox. There are no alternatives, nearly all other browsers are built on Chromium. Making FF more prominent will not give Google more power, it will give Mozilla more power to negotiate better deals with Google and Bing to become the default search engine, because in the world of browsers, that's what pays the bills. Giving more power to Mozilla hinges on them having a…

Exactly. Also, if some anecdata can help change a mind: Firefox is a really good browser these days. I use it quite heavily, and it hasn’t disappointed in the last three or so years since I switched from Chrome.

About the only use case I still need Chrome for is for sites requiring experimental web APIs not supported by Firefox, such as Web USB or Web Bluetooth. Site compatibility for everything else, including very heavy web apps, is just fine.

History sync is encrypted, which is what made me switch over in the first place (Chrome deactivates history sync when activating end-to-end encryption – go figure…)

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#303

Post by marcinzm »

scarface_74 wrote: post #248
marcinzm wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you understand what a business is. Google pays Firefox a lot of money to be the default search which means there is a lot of money in browsers. Google Search conceptually pays Google Chrome to be the default Search engine on Chrome. Except since they're both under the same company they will never take an outside offer which is why it's a monopoly. No different from any other vertically integrated compan…

I understand that perfectly, how do you think the theoretical Chrome business would make money?

The same way the non-theoretical Firefox business makes money.

edit: Safari as well.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#304

Post by scarface_74 »

mozball wrote: post #128
scarface_74 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Google Search is notably absent in your list. If this proposal becomes standard in Chrome, You can be sure Microsoft and Apple will follow Google's lead with the same or their own similar implementations. See Microsoft Pluton and Apple's Private Access Tokens. Or read this article which provides an excellent overview of these developments. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32282305 Make no mistake. If this becomes…

I didn’t specifically try to De-Googlefy my life for some moral reason. I think most of Google’s products are second rate - including their search page unless you use an Ad blocker. But I do find myself using ChatGPT more and Google less for coding questions since it does a better job of giving me exact answers to my problems and code is easy to verify for correctness.

As far as YouTube, I think I only use it for AWS ReInvent videos. I can’t stand ads and there are no ads interrupting the video.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#305

Post by lacrimacida »

mardifoufs wrote: post #264
mozball wrote: post #26

If this isn't the straw that breaks the camel's back, there is never going to be one. Google needs to be broken up. They own the browser market. They own the web (through Adwords). They own Search. They own mobile. They own most of the video sharing market with 2.5 billion monthly annual users. They own a good chunk of email with 1.2 billion monthly annual users. They have amassed an incomprehensible amount of power…

Why should the US break up an asset like Google? Would be completely self defeating. This isn't like standard oil or at&t, that mostly had influence and market share inside the US. It would basically be handing power to foreign competitors who would pounce at the opportunity And I'm not American so it's not even some sort of patriotic comment. If Europe , or anywhere else, had a Google sized Behemoth, they wouldn't m…

One thing comes to mind: antitrust! It happened to Microsoft as well!!

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#306

Post by kmeisthax »

tenpies wrote: post #65
thejosh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloudflare want to be the internets backbone. And they've honestly succeeded. Now it's almost impossible to access websites in an automated way -- the CTO posted you can just email him ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34639212 ) and he'll sort it. Because that scales. edit: Mispoke about the CTO, said he would approve you, I was wrong. Apologies. Their DNS is "privacy focused", but they provide "aggregated resu…

Also remember, Cloudflare is de-facto the moderator of the internet. Whatever you may think of Kiwifarms, we all saw how that narrative unfolded from a technical perspective.

Yes. Cloudflare was irresponsible in fighting to keep 8chan, Daily Stormer, and Kiwifarms up as long as they did. Every other ISP with a competent abuse desk dropped them. If you don't think that's bad, then let me remind you that back in 2012, Malwarebytes actually had a policy of blocking all Cloudflare services specifically because they were hosting malware and refused to remove it[0]. The excuse Cloudflare used for not removing malware from their network was the same language used to justify keeping the aforementioned sites operational. If Cloudflare was paid to run the Great Firewall of China they'd bend over backwards to try and claim it was to protect Xi Jinping's freedom of speech.

Remember that moderators can be abusive not just in terms of removing content that shouldn't be removed, but also by forcing you to accept things that harm you. Moderation is a trust relationship because I'm delegating my own personal decision to accept or block traffic/content/etc to someone else. Cloudflare is not trustworthy.

Cloudflare also used to be a big pain in the ass for Tor/VPN users because competent DDoS protection requires some kind of traceable identity. Their solution was Privacy Pass - an extension that let you pre-solve their CAPTCHAs. However, this wasn't good enough, so their next solution... was to literally partner with Apple to implement Web Environment Integrity, years before Google even proposed it. Nobody noticed this - not even me - because it was sold as a way to make CAPTCHAs less annoying. It was literally the trojan horse Google could only dream of building.

[0] https://forums.malwarebytes.com/topic/108447-my-site-using-c...

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#307

Post by gorhill »

ailef wrote: post #4

Can somebody explain what are the practical implications of this?

To turn your browser (an agent acting on your behalf) into a proprietary application (an agent acting on behalf of a website) -- i.e. the equivalent of forcing you to install a proprietary application in order to visit a website.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#308

Post by coffeefirst »

wsgeorge wrote: post #118
bee_rider wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear Firefox is mismanaged all the time, but it seems to be a perfectly fine browser for the most part. I hear all about sites that won’t render in comments on this website, but they must all be internal tools or something because I never encounter them.

Some Google services I regularly depend on (like YouTube and Google Meet) don't work as well on Firefox as they do on Chrome, in ways that actually matter. Besides that I think most websites work fine.

Yes. Google uses chrome-only APIs in a few of its own products and falls back not so gracefully.

Which sort of underscores the monopoly point. There’s no universal free/cheap alternative to Meet, further entrenching Chromium.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#309

Post by suslik »

In the end, I feel like there is a silver lining to all this. As the world wide web becomes more sanitised with their codes of conduct, corporate censorship, ads, witch hunts, all these limitations - more and more, I hope, would the valuable, interesting bits of it drift to alternative locations.

The internets of old were just that - a place where nerds, freaks, outcasts, and other antisocial personalities congregated. Everything was permitted and everything was possible. Many, myself included, hoped that it would change the world. It didn't - the world is winning again, as everyone can clearly see. Still, I hope that the normalisation of the web might as well create a critical mass of those who just want something more than just a corporate safe space.

I sincerely wish that there is a future where protocols like gemini - stripped from all the visual noise and 'dynamic' features - get a critical mass of useres. If that doesn't happen - as someone who doesn't use any mainstream social media, google and microsoft services, llms and other modern (and some might add - dystopian) stuff - I don't really loose much. There are enough great books for a hundred lifetimes, enough hikes to walk and friends to get blasted with. Maybe it'd even be for the better.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#310

Post by mehdix »

ewgoforth wrote: post #99
unmole wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what happens when website owners decide supporting Firefox is not worth it?

So many sites don't work correctly in Firefox. Chrome is the new IE6.

Firefox is my daily driver on all my computers and smartphones. There are some hiccups, often with obscure websites and airlines. Most of them better be avoided anyways. However, Slack and Microsoft Teams don't function properly in Firefox.
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