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US could soon approve MDMA therapy

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Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#301

Post by chimeracoder »

AlwaysRock wrote: post #198

Does anyone have a timeline of what the history of this has been? Because I'm fairly positive that I was going to sign up for MDMA therapy for chronic pain in Chicago ~5 years ago because a clinic nearby offered it. But when I got around to it insurance regulations had changed and was no longer going to cover part of it so it was going to be incredibly expensive. It's possible that was ketamine therapy but I thought…

> Because I'm fairly positive that I was going to sign up for MDMA therapy for chronic pain in Chicago ~5 years ago because a clinic nearby offered it.

Very highly doubtful. MDMA is an amphetamine, and use of amphetamines for pain management is pretty rare. And even among amphetamines, MDMA is pretty undesireable for that purpose, due to its rapid development of tolerance compared to other amphetamines and risks of lasting negative side effects with repeated use in short durations - which rules out nearly all use cases for physical pain management.

> It's possible that was ketamine therapy

Ketamine is used to treat both acute and chronic pain, so this is much more plausible.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#302

Post by projectazorian »

vorpalhex wrote: post #238
hammyhavoc wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish more people spoke about their negative experiences with psychedelics. It's a sobering and necessary counterpoint to most of what floods these threads of how it changed someone's life, but the "how" is largely ambiguous.

I find trip reports tend to be much more brutally honest than writeups aimed at normies.

Yeah, the people doing all the writeups tend to have the info and support network in place to manage the experience in a way that maximizes the possibility of success. Not everyone reading the latest article about mushrooms in the NYT has that.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#303

Post by readthenotes1 »

phonescreen_man wrote: post #260
Starcrunch wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad to hear from someone else who's honest about their negative experience. Psychedelics seem to somehow have simply amazing PR: plentiful testimonies of their life-changing abilities, encouraging us to try them, but very little acknowledgement of their dark side. The subculture is very quick to brush away anything that goes against the narrative of the "mind-opening wonder drugs that big pharma doesn't want you…

People seem to think they can just take a load of mushies and it can solve all lives problems. The great art requires a lot of hard heart work and suffering.

" > The subculture is very quick to brush away anything that goes against the narrative of...

Oh here we go again."

No sense of irony?

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#304

Post by chimeracoder »

opportune wrote: post #293
GuB-42 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MDMA is an amphetamine, like many ADHD medication, so it is not that much of a stretch to think that it can work. And to answer the "but you can't patent an old molecule", in fact, yes you can. Adderall is plain old amphetamine, but with a specific ratio of the D and L type, so it could be patented. The pharmaceutical industry is adept at making small tweaks to existing drugs, a supposed improvement according to thei…

We don’t have to stretch, plenty of people have ADHD and have taken MDMA, I can tell you personally that MDMA is in no way a substitute for regular adhd medication. Like, not even close. MDMA is basically a social/lovey high that mildly distorts your vision and senses, it is not something you would take regularly to help focus on work. And taking it once isn’t going to help you focus better after taking it

> We don’t have to stretch, plenty of people have ADHD and have taken MDMA, I can tell you personally that MDMA is in no way a substitute for regular adhd medication. Like, not even close. MDMA is basically a social/lovey high that mildly distorts your vision and senses, it is not something you would take regularly to help focus on work. And taking it once isn’t going to help you focus better after taking it

Your end point - that MDMA is not a substitute for ADHD medication - is correct, but the reasoning you're providing is faulty.

Even assuming you were taking a pure and unadulterated substance - which I'm willing to bet you weren't[0] - this personal anecdote doesn't really refute the original point. Set, setting, and dosing make a huge difference. MDMA is much closer to methamphetamine - both biochemically and in its effect - than most people realize. And methamphetamine is itself a prescribed ADHD medication, fairly similar in effect (when dosed appropriately) to Dexedrine, which itself largely interchangeable with the medication everyone knows and associates with ADHD: Adderall.

MDMA can actually be taken to improve focus, in the right dose and setting. However, the reason that it shouldn't be used for this purpose is because MDMA is more selective for serotonin than most other amphetamines, and serotonin depletion and downregulation means that it can't be used this way regularly (ie, on the order of weeks-to-months to restore baseline levels).

[0] Virtually all MDMA outside of clinical settings is contaminated to some degree, usually with another amphetamine.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#305

Post by UncleOxidant »

Glench wrote: post #18

Personally, I left tech in large part to become a therapist doing psychedelic-assisted clinical work when it becomes legal. It really does seem like it can be a potent tool for relieving great suffering. You can read a little about my story here: http://glench.com/WhyIQuitTechAndBecameATherapist/

The only place this is currently legal is Oregon, right? I know they're training currently training therapists for psychadelic-assisted clinical work and it's supposed to be starting soon.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#306

Post by opportune »

chimeracoder wrote: post #304
opportune wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don’t have to stretch, plenty of people have ADHD and have taken MDMA, I can tell you personally that MDMA is in no way a substitute for regular adhd medication. Like, not even close. MDMA is basically a social/lovey high that mildly distorts your vision and senses, it is not something you would take regularly to help focus on work. And taking it once isn’t going to help you focus better after taking it

> We don’t have to stretch, plenty of people have ADHD and have taken MDMA, I can tell you personally that MDMA is in no way a substitute for regular adhd medication. Like, not even close. MDMA is basically a social/lovey high that mildly distorts your vision and senses, it is not something you would take regularly to help focus on work. And taking it once isn’t going to help you focus better after taking it Your end…

Have you taken mdma (let’s say, the brown powder which is typically considered less likely to be adulterated) and adderall? I’m sorry but I just can’t believe anybody who has experienced the two would say that mdma would help focus as well as a regular adhd medication.

You can’t just look at the structures or names and assume that fully explains the effects. Yes, it’s an amphetamine. Imagine there was some form of alcohol that both got you drunk but also gave you a strong cannabis high - if you went a bar serving that you’d notice entirely different behavior compared to regular alcohol. That’s like MDMA compared to a regular amphetamine - not in that it’s like cannabis but it stacks a completely different and overpowering effect on top of the base it gets from being a phenethylamine.

Yes, regular MDMA usage is harmful to the brain much more than other amphetamines, that’s just another reason it would not be a suitable replacement.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#307

Post by projectazorian »

caseyohara wrote: post #283
vonnik wrote: post #282

Contrary data point to encourage caution with MDMA: MDMA can reset your dopamine baseline much lower. That is, after you come down, you may feel depressed, and it may be hard to climb out of that depression for a while. Use caution please.

I think you mean serotonin. MDMA causes greater release of serotonin and norepinephrine than of dopamine, and dopamine resets to baseline much faster than serotonin. > MDMA-exposed primates showed reduced numbers of serotonergic neurons 7 years later, indicating that some of MDMA’s effect on the brain can be long lasting. > Low serotonin is associated with poor memory and depressed mood, thus these findings are consi…

While doing MDMA in excess is a bad idea, it's worth noting that these studies have a lot of potential confounders.

One example is that PTSD also causes "confusion, depression, anxiety, paranoia, and impairment of memory and attention processes." And it's likely that some people with PTSD are self-medicating with MDMA.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#308

Post by rexpop »

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #292
specproc wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only recreational. I've taken MDMA many times in my life and -- presumably like most people who have -- can see why it's got therapeutic potential. Honestly though, I'm not convinced about it in a clinical setting, unless there's a particularly severe issue that needs addressing. I reckon most people are best off just buying some, getting together with a couple of very good mates on a nice day, rolling out into the c…

I do see the logic in its clinical application: It's the combination of two facts: 1) Human recall is imperfect. The act of remembering an event actively modifies the memory for future recall, which can be tinted by other thoughts and experiences someone is having while doing the recollection. 2) It's rather difficult to feel strong negative emotion while on MDMA. While under the effects, the baseline is somewhere be…

> It's rather difficult to feel strong negative emotion while on MDMA. While under the effects, the baseline is somewhere between "happy" and "downright euphoric".

I am floored by this assertion, as it's completely contrary to my experience. My reaction to MDMA was a nightmare of disorientation, fear, and anxiety. I don't remember the dosage, but the setting was my own home, among friends and acquaintances at my own birthday party.

I don't know if my strongly negative memories of this event constitute "trauma," but they are certainly neither warm nor fuzzy.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#309

Post by chimeracoder »

bnjms wrote: post #202
hammyhavoc wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's going to replace ADHD medication whatsoever. How would that even work?

For non hyperactive types I believe there is commonly anxiety with the ADD which is alleviated by the small dose of amphetamine. Maybe MDMA helps reduce anxiety for the medium term after a dose? I don’t know if that’s been found scientifically yet. I do know MDMA clears anxiety during the high. Knowing what the lack of anxiety feels like could be very powerful paired with therapy to train a body to return to lower an…

> For non hyperactive types I believe there is commonly anxiety with the ADD which is alleviated by the small dose of amphetamine. Maybe MDMA helps reduce anxiety for the medium term after a dose?

ADHD is at its core an executive function disorder, and even the symptoms of anxiety caused by ADHD are rooted in difficulties in executive function, which is unrelated to anxiety with other etiologies (such as anxiety disorders, depression, or PTSD).

It's implausible that MDMA would be useful for this purpose, because there's no theory that would connect MDMA to improved executive function after the acute effects have worn off.

> Knowing what the lack of anxiety feels like could be very powerful paired with therapy to train a body to return to lower anxiety levels.

You have a misunderstanding of how ADHD works. "Knowing what lack of anxiety feels like" won't fix the executive function disorder that prevents an individual from translating that knowledge into action.

Re: US could soon approve MDMA therapy

#310

Post by dokem »

xyzwave wrote: post #300
dokem wrote: post #164

Or just do drugs by yourself or with friends and not around some stranger who guides you to state approved answers. Also do mushrooms, not this shit. Only reason they're pushing this brain-melting stuff is because they can make a buck. 'actually drugs are good now. Just give us your credit card and insurance info and step right this way'. Fuck off. Do drugs in the woods and sort your shit out like we've been doing fo…

> Only reason they're pushing this brain-melting stuff is because they can make a buck Citations sorely needed. The only paper I’ve seen make neurotoxicity claims was retracted long ago[1]. 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC194116/

You did 5 minutes of internet research, think you know what you're talking about, and now think I owe you something. I can't help you.
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