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Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

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Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#301

Post by foverzar »

GalenErso wrote: post #16
The_Colonel wrote: post #4

Finland got de-Finlandized at last. Which is what the expansion of NATO was always about. NATO isn't a threat to Russia itself - if Russia seriously feared NATO aggression, it wouldn't voluntarily demilitarize its NATO borders during the past 13 months. NATO expansion just neutralizes Russian ability to force its will upon its neighbors through threat of aggression (or in case like Ukraine through the use of aggressi…

I don't buy the idea that it was a mistake for NATO to allow former Soviet bloc countries to join, because it would supposedly encroach on Russia's sphere of influence or increase tensions with Russia. Spheres of influence are gained through economic muscle and cultural power now, not force of arms.

> I don't buy the idea that it was a mistake for NATO to allow former Soviet bloc countries to join, because it would supposedly encroach on Russia's sphere of influence or increase tensions with Russia

It was a mistake for NATO to do it without Russia. It's not a matter of "influence", but a matter of military risks and perceived threats.

If there was a political will towards pushing Russia to NATO any similar to what has been going on with Georgia or Ukraine, we'd be living in a different world.

But now (really far more than a decade already) Russia is alienated from NATO, perceives it as a threat and a bad actor. And people will be making all kinds of moralistic arguments, but point is that all of this is a consequence of geopolitical natural laws. Fact is, politicians and leaders were clearly aware of those laws and all the cause-effects and general outcomes, but nevertheless had stirred the world towards it.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#302

Post by eCa »

itsoktocry wrote: post #188
throwaway894345 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many NATO countries has Russia attacked in the history of NATO? How many non-NATO countries? Moreover, Finland’s military and diplomatic bureaucracy was already well-integrated into NATO, so there isn’t a _lot_ of additional organization (at least as far as these things go).

> How many NATO countries has Russia attacked in the history of NATO? How many non-NATO countries? How many countries has America/NATO attacked in the history of NATO?

> America/NATO

They are not the same.

The list of Nato operations can be found here[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_operations

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#303

Post by andrewflnr »

tokai wrote: post #206
ghiculescu wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Here’s some examples. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35439104 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35439349

... they are both not downvoted. I have comments under both of them, and there is a lively discussion.

You can't see downvotes on a direct link. But on the main comments page I can see the first one heavily downvoted.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#304

Post by andreygrehov »

happymellon wrote: post #267
andreygrehov wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m asking, what is Russia trying to say? Stop the expansion. Watch the video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ58Yv6kP44

Okay, so Ukraine didn't join NATO and then they were invaded. That doesn't sound like it's a message worth listening to.

The conflict was almost inevitable. In January, before the war started, Russia made the last attempt to stop the expansion. The U.S. rejected it [1]. Russia made multiple hints saying that if the expansion continues, they'll invade. That's why, imho, Biden was so confident in Feb 19-20 saying the war will begin within a week. Heck, even Ukraine knew everything, but they decided to hide it from people - this was confirmed by the Ukrainian government during one of the interviews.

[1] https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-biden-putin-sanctions...

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#305

Post by petre »

alkonaut wrote: post #150
andreygrehov wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> the expansion of NATO gives the US ability to force its will upon NATO members and its neighbors Last I checked countries apply to join, and the alliance is free to leave. And of course like in any organization if you want to reap the benefits you may want to also accept some of the drawbacks. The most obvious one for a country like Finland probably isn't somehow being under the spell of the US, but rather being in…

Hungary and Turkey can do whatever they want, but the effect of sabotaging the alliance is that they get cut off from US arms deals, maybe even French ones. We have seen this when Turkey bought the S400 from Russia - they got kicked out of the F-35 program. Hungary is still leasing planes from Saab. They will ratify Sweden's NATO membership.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#306

Post by sbaiddn »

mastax wrote: post #277
sbaiddn wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the PM who nursed this just lost the election. But I suspect most Fins agree with the decision.

Lost the election (while gaining seats) to a party which has been pro-NATO for longer.

... so she lost the elections, but most Fins support the ascension.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#307

Post by TheCoelacanth »

coffeebeqn wrote: post #91
GalenErso wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy the idea that it was a mistake for NATO to allow former Soviet bloc countries to join, because it would supposedly encroach on Russia's sphere of influence or increase tensions with Russia. Spheres of influence are gained through economic muscle and cultural power now, not force of arms.

It is a voluntary alliance. Countries apply to join. They’re not coerced. Small countries will and sovereignty also matters.

Russia perceives small countries bordering them having sovereignty as an encroachment on its territory. Don't they realize that they are supposed to be Russian puppet states?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#308

Post by ilyt »

boeingUH60 wrote: post #247

Score a win for the US, NATO, and the west. Putin is a weak fraud who has been exposed…can’t wait for his regime to collapse, all without the west lifting a finger. When you meet a mad paranoid dog like Putin, the best thing is to bait them and let them eat themselves just like Putin has done.

It's not just putler, it's whole system that supported him.

A pyramid of lies and corruption 100 years in making finally falls apart

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#309

Post by greedo »

Auracle wrote: post #164
tokai wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nukes are useless tactically. Especially when you can't provide CBRN uniforms and training to all your troops.

That's a stretch. Imagine Russia could use their nukes without retaliation. They could have completely destroyed every military base and city in Ukraine before the invasion, along with the people's will to fight. Or just used the threat of doing so to take Ukraine piece by piece.

Russia has been continually threatening to use nuclear weapons and it hasn't affected anything.

If Russia were to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine, it would be a pariah for centuries, assuming it didn't lead to global thermonuclear war.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#310

Post by BurningFrog »

prepend wrote: post #294
lazide wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, Moscow always ran the USSR. That’s a bit like lamenting that how messed up an abusers knuckles got after hitting it on folks faces for so long.

I can’t reply to comment under this that claimed that people in Moscow were from all across USSR so I’m replying here. The Soviet Union was still ruled by Russians [0]… “ From 1919 until 1991, 89 members of the Politburo were Russians (which makes up 68 percent). In distant second were Ukrainians, who had 11 members in the Politburo, making up 8 percent. In third place are both ethnic Jews and Georgians, who had 4 me…

Not sure those numbers matter, since Stalin had the only vote that mattered 1924-1953.

And he happened to be Georgian.

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