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Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

mattbruenig.com

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Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#301

Post by g42gregory »

eppp wrote: post #128
hbarka wrote: post #109

Assuming you are grid-tied, the reduction of electric bills is predicated on net metering, where the utility company gives you (ideally) 1-for-1 credit for the electricity you produce. In California, this was called NEM 1.0 and NEM 2.0. Every few years the California utilities lobby the Public Utilities Commission (PUC) to chip away at the NEM program. This year the PUC voted unanimously to cut net energy metering an…

Because net metering is forcing the utility to purchase power at the retail rate. It doesn't make any sense. It isn't a profit margin issue. There is a massive infrastructure and expense to deliver wholesale power to an individual customer and it has to be recouped. Either you sell back your power at some percent of wholesale or solar installs need to get a corresponding increased delivery fee.

PG&E is a designated as a Utility by law. This means that their profit margin is fixed (at 9? percent). Basically this is the discount they should buy the power from you, which should be fine.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#302

Post by manimino »

whycombagator wrote: post #60
swagasaurus-rex wrote: post #3

> The unsubsidized all-in price for buying and installing the panels was $25,525.43... after counting this $6,636.61 tax credit, the subsidized price was $18,888.82 Looks like a 7 year return on investment after subsidies, 10 years without.

I never usually see it factored in as a cost but if a roof is replaced or a leak forms under the panels (or a panel) then the cost of removing/re-installing the panel(s) surely isn’t free. So that cost should also be included

Cleaning panels also needs to happen periodically. That cost can be in the thousands, especially if your roof is hard to access (e.g. high off the ground).

There are so many ways a rooftop solar installation investment can turn against you. If regulations change, your net metering goes away. If electricity prices drop, your ROI goes negative.

Rooftop solar is a fun enthusiast project, but it's a lousy use of solar panels. Community solar or utility solar projects are far better for homeowners. And for the environment.

The only reason people do it is that there are artificial incentives; it's not actually efficient in reality.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#303

Post by brk »

praxulus wrote: post #144
hbarka wrote: post #109

Assuming you are grid-tied, the reduction of electric bills is predicated on net metering, where the utility company gives you (ideally) 1-for-1 credit for the electricity you produce. In California, this was called NEM 1.0 and NEM 2.0. Every few years the California utilities lobby the Public Utilities Commission (PUC) to chip away at the NEM program. This year the PUC voted unanimously to cut net energy metering an…

Net metering just doesn't make sense though. Everyone who wants to rely on the grid for power availability ought to pay for grid upkeep costs. Net metering would make sense if it came on top of a baseline "connectivity fee" that covered grid maintenance, but that's not the current policy, would likely be politically infeasible, and would hurt rooftop solar customers financially anyway. Subsidizing solar is a perfectl…

Most net metering does have a base connection charge. Mine is ~$35/mo, even when I have produced more energy in a month than we consumed, my bill was still about $40 after base fees and taxes/etc.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#304

Post by dymk »

avgDev wrote: post #169
atonalfreerider wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not affiliated, but Solar Wholesale is a DIY that can be 1/4 the cost of hiring a contractor: https://www.solarwholesale.com Even the wiring is DIY. Most people think this requires a lot of skill, but you are just adding an input to your panel board on your house.

I would love to DIY but that website is a complete turn off for me. In my opinion, a good DIY solar company site would have transparent pricing and ability to buy components. I understand there are variations in installations and pricing may be different, but they should have a pricing catalog.

What's wrong with the website? You submit your address, within a short period of time a human looks at your rooftop using aerial photography, and sends you a quote.

I used them in the past, and they were fine to work with. I still ended up sourcing all my own equipment (saved an additional 50% from what they were quoting me, for a better system), but they're not secretive about what they'll send you.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#305

Post by manimino »

kibwen wrote: post #221
shostack wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is net return all that matters? Seems like with increasing heat waves, power outages etc, being able to generate and store your own electricity has value from a resiliency standpoint.

Note that merely having solar panels on your house doesn't automatically let you run your house off of the panels in the event that the grid goes down. Firstly, if you're connected to the grid, then a single house trying to push power into a downed grid would be like trying to refill the ocean with a super soaker. Even with lots of houses doing it, the frequency would be wildly unstable at best and cause damage to eq…

Exactly right. Typical solar installations keep you on the grid. And when the grid goes out, so do you.

To become grid-independent adds substantial expense. Having your own battery adds another $10-20k, along with whatever costs are associated with switching the grid.

Also, being off-grid is actually illegal in some places.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#306

Post by dymk »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #232
mrguyorama wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different states have different rules but in some states you can just put a new breaker in your box that connects the solar output to the rest of your house and a mechanical interlock (literally a stamped piece of metal) that prevents both the main breaker and solar breaker being closed at the same time.

Ah, OK, so that would work for the "simple" systems, but not the ones where you can feed power back into the grid and get a credit.

For those you need an automatic transfer switch (ATS), such as the Enphase Enpower. Such devices contain circuitry to automatically manage disconnecting your home from the grid, so you 1) maintain power in the home (at least on the critical circuits you decide on), and 2) don't island your home (so linemen don't die).

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#307

Post by brk »

hbarka wrote: post #109

Assuming you are grid-tied, the reduction of electric bills is predicated on net metering, where the utility company gives you (ideally) 1-for-1 credit for the electricity you produce. In California, this was called NEM 1.0 and NEM 2.0. Every few years the California utilities lobby the Public Utilities Commission (PUC) to chip away at the NEM program. This year the PUC voted unanimously to cut net energy metering an…

No, you'd don't need net metering to make it viable.

In a typical grid-tied system, the setup is such that any demand is fulfilled first by solar capacity, and second from the grid. If your array can fulfill 100% (or more) of your demand, then you pull nothing from the grid.

If you don't have a net metering arrangement and you regularly produce more than 100% of your local demand, then your options are to simply throw away the excess, or use a battery system to store it for later use.

If you have a net metering agreement, then the grid acts like a giant battery, which may or may not have input and output fees (think of it very roughly like Amazon S3 pricing). Ideally you have a 1:1 arrangement, where you can feed energy into the grid for free, and pull back up to whatever you supplied at parity pricing (eg: for free). But, there is no reason a utility company has to offer that arrangement, they could charge you some fee to supply energy if they wanted, and they could charge you some fee to pull energy back.

For the most part, the most cost effective solar systems will supply about 75-80% of your average monthly demand. It almost never a good investment to overbuild your solar system on the premise of making money off of net metering, as the rate you are paid for production is essentially a wholesale price, making you a micro power plant, which is not a very profitable business. Covering the bulk of your energy usage with your own solar supply, and then pulling a minimum amount of power from the grid to fill the gaps will tend to keep you at the best supply pricing tier.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#308

Post by rr888 »

AndrewGaspar wrote: post #168

Can somebody explain where the return on investment comes from in residential solar? It just strikes me that if there was easy money to be had on solar installations, we'd just get tons of utility scale solar installs (which would likely by more capital efficient) and my utility bill would over time converge on the expected total utility bill for a home with residential solar. Is it just because we're in that transit…

Because with net metering you can generally sell at a much higher price than the wholesale rate. It was a loophole that is now going away.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#309

Post by throwaquestion5 »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #151
throwaquestion5 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They took 7 months to install the panels. I'm sure times during all that the OP thought if they forgot about him, called them to ask for a installation date, etc. As a way to curb any thought about undue wait time, the company made a contract guaranteeing installation between 6 month after signing. They didn't comply and the loan lapsed. Now the company needed to negotiate a new contract with OP or go for the legal r…

> There is nothing unethical about this. I dont consider strong arming someone due to your now advantageous position against something you previously agreed upon and reasonably similarly delivered (7 months instead of 6, we're not talking about multiple years later here). A similar ethical framework would allow someone in marriage say "I quit my job, can get alimony from you, better do as I say or I'm filing for divo…

OP wasn't planning a devious plan here. The 6 month contract seems standard from the company side. They shoot themselves on the foot and the loan just got voided. OP would be paying the company for nothing without a new loan

> (7 months instead of 6, we're not talking about multiple years later here)

Maybe this is a disagreement based on past experiences, but the most infuriating thing when working with home contractors is chasing them around so they do they finish their job. I get if this were business to business transaction that are used to year long delays, but as a person I find having a half finished ceiling to by a big disruption in my daily life. Being fair OP didn't say anything about having to fix their roof before installing the solar panels, but having to put up with business delays in your home projects isn't the most pleasant experience.

If we go to the ethical side of things, in this case the company installed something without doing proper diligence in their part. This could have been solved if they presented a new contract in OP home when they went to install the panels. Paying without a loan would have been foolish from OP side, same if he paid it at the more expensive 2022 prices. In fact OP would probably be forced to do if they asked him about it before installing the panels. This would be unethical from the company side: delaying 6+ months the installation and proposing a more expensive loan before installation.

Let's not skip the company trying to swindle OP to pay without a proper contract by scaring him. Some of us may be used to this kind of threats. Doesn't mean they are ethical at all. They should have been upfront with the problem from the beginning, not bullying people with scary letters.

Re: Solar panels reduced my electric bill in 2022

#310

Post by ars »

DeRock wrote: post #257
atonalfreerider wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not affiliated, but Solar Wholesale is a DIY that can be 1/4 the cost of hiring a contractor: https://www.solarwholesale.com Even the wiring is DIY. Most people think this requires a lot of skill, but you are just adding an input to your panel board on your house.

https://projectsolar.com is another DIY-able option, where they help with the permitting, etc.

It's nice they give you an instant quote, but they don't give enough info for me to be willing to take the next step.

Basic things like:

What is the physical size of the quoted panels?

The KW rating they give, is that actual power delivered, or rated power?

If rated power, how much actual power would they expect given my geographical location, and angle of roof.

How much of the roof are they covering?

They want $100 for the next step - presumably I would get those answers then, but I'm not willing to risk $100 without knowing more.

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