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Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

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Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh, there is certainly a point being missed here. Should the federal government give states the right to ban Islam? If someone argued that it should... they'd rightly be acknowledged as anti-Islam, because freedom of religion is a human right, and rights aren't just rights for the federal government, but for all the state governments. Rights are inviolable. If Ron Paul believes states should be able to violate cert…

I would like to attempt a thought experiment and see if you could buy this scenario: Imagine if Ron Paul becomes President (yeah, right, but hang with me) and he does give states the right to do all kinds of things within the constitution. (Side note: I think banning the practice of Islam is unconstitutional due to the first amendment) So let's say that some Southern states ban abortion and ban gay marriage. That suc…

Darn, I was hoping for a response from scarmig.

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ron Paul wants to allow gold and silver to be used as legal tender. This is not the same thing as returning to the gold standard.

OK, sorry, my wording was loose there; nonetheless, as he is looking for gold and silver to be admissable as payment, I think there's three possible scenarios. One, the market ignores this and everyone continues paying in the dollars the president thinks are just another means of exchange. Sounds risky to me; it's pretty much a public statement that the gvernment won't at all seek to defend the value of the dollar so…

the historic result of not having the Federal Reserve was high inflation - it's been tried

Do you have the backwards?

The dollar has lost 95% of its value since the creation of the Federal Reserve.

Inflation with gold based currency is rare. The California Gold Rush is the big example of inflation with a gold currency.

a public statement that the gvernment won't at all seek to defend the value of the dollar

The Federal Reserve and the government have already signaled through their actions that they want to devalue the dollar. Examples: Geithner asking China to revalue the yuan, quantitative easing, record deficit spending and so on.

If the dollar really is so wonderful, then it shouldn't be threatened by gold.

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#303
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My above phrase was not quite correct: it's not about the candidate, per se, it's about labeling as 'sane' those policies that he agrees with. Presumably, he could have a great time trading 'insane' and other verbiage with the people who view the lack of universal health care in the US as 'insane', as one example, and no one would be the better off for the whole exchange. By the way, you, too, are insane for not agre…

By the way, you, too, are insane for not agreeing 100% with me:-) It would be seem we agree on many points, but you've thought a little more about the meaning and implications of (un)civil discourse. At first glance, maybe one would feel compelled to label insane proposals as such. But the lack of a clear arbiter of what is sane and not sane is a bit problematic. Everyday life has always involved a bit of insanity an…

> Is it wrong in a society that supposedly values free speech to express this belief?

Absolutely not! But there's a difference between expressing it here and on some other site. There are plenty of sites for political debate, from free-for-alls with all included, to various flavors ranging from neofascists to anarcho capitalists to communists and of course everything else in between.

I'm skeptical of many such sites producing anything other than volumes of vitriol, because many people do believe other people's positions to be 'insane', and if that's where you're starting from... it's difficult to find common ground.

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, sorry, my wording was loose there; nonetheless, as he is looking for gold and silver to be admissable as payment, I think there's three possible scenarios. One, the market ignores this and everyone continues paying in the dollars the president thinks are just another means of exchange. Sounds risky to me; it's pretty much a public statement that the gvernment won't at all seek to defend the value of the dollar so…

the historic result of not having the Federal Reserve was high inflation - it's been tried Do you have the backwards? The dollar has lost 95% of its value since the creation of the Federal Reserve. Inflation with gold based currency is rare. The California Gold Rush is the big example of inflation with a gold currency. a public statement that the gvernment won't at all seek to defend the value of the dollar The Feder…

Do you have the backwards?

The dollar has lost 95% of its value since the creation of the Federal Reserve.

Inflation with gold based currency is rare. The California Gold Rush is the big example of inflation with a gold currency.

No, I don't.

Firstly, the periods when the US had no national reserve bank showed either severe inflation or a depression / panic cycle that only ended with a private reserve bank being set up as lender of last resort - hardly ideal. In both cases the lack of reserve banking made the financial system volatile and unstable.

Secondly, the Federal Reserve was created 99 years ago. A 95% drop in value (your numbers, I've no idea of their accuracy) is equivalent to inflation compounded for 99 years at just 3%. While I agree hyperinflation is bad, 3% is a long way from hyperinflation and a cursory examination of the Japanese economy in the 1990s shows why deflation is a bad thing. Some small inflation is good because it promotes market liquidity rather than hoarding and provides incentives to investment.

Thirdly, China are being asked to revalue the Yuan because its value is being artificially manipulated down to make both Chinese exports into world markets cheaper and foriegn imports more expensive, both to the benefit of China but the detriment of global free trade and free markets. It also has the side-effect of exacerbating China's balance of payments surplus and leading to it stockpiling both resources and currency (thus artificially boosting its international buying power), which is directly parallel to the mid-19th century 'silver grave' situation that led to the Opium Wars. Revaluing the Yuan is emphatically not an indication that the dollar is inherently weak, it's an indication that China is trying to use the openness of western markets and restriction of their own to its own advantage.

Fourthly, the California gold rush and resultant inflation is an example of what happens in a commodity-backed economy when that commodity suddenly becomes more abundant, a factor that is now out of state control unlike the Dollar money supply which is currently able to be tightly controlled. Commodity-backed currencies in the past have also caused severe deflation, and we're back in Japan in the 1990s. Now, the bulk of world gold mining assets are in Australia and China, and China is agressively buying up Australian mining assets - well, mining assets in general, particularly across Africa, using up its balance of payments surplus created by their artificial suppression of the value of the Yuan. A gold-backed US economy would have its money supply (and by extension both credit availability and rates of inflation / deflation) largely out of national control and primarily in the hands of China. I don't think this is a good idea.

All of which is why I think Ron Paul's understanding of economics is dangerously flawed and (reluctantly) I'd regard him as the least preferable Republican presidential nominee.

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the historic result of not having the Federal Reserve was high inflation - it's been tried Do you have the backwards? The dollar has lost 95% of its value since the creation of the Federal Reserve. Inflation with gold based currency is rare. The California Gold Rush is the big example of inflation with a gold currency. a public statement that the gvernment won't at all seek to defend the value of the dollar The Feder…

Do you have the backwards? The dollar has lost 95% of its value since the creation of the Federal Reserve. Inflation with gold based currency is rare. The California Gold Rush is the big example of inflation with a gold currency. No, I don't. Firstly, the periods when the US had no national reserve bank showed either severe inflation or a depression / panic cycle that only ended with a private reserve bank being set…

Rather than refuting all of the points above, I'd like to take the discussion in a different direction.

You are against allowing people to use gold as money. Is it because you are trying to save people from themselves? Perhaps it's because you are concerned about what it might do to the dollar. If that's your concern, is that not an admission that the dollar is fragile?

Is it wise to run the economy with the Federal Reserve as a single point of failure? We are suffering greatly from the failures of the Federal Reserve now. They will make mistakes in the future.

Edit because site will not let me comment on reply below:

The Federal Reserve failed us by stoking the housing boom with low interest rates. The subsequent bust has caused many people to suffer through lost jobs, lost homes and ruined credit ratings.

The Federal Reserve is a single point of failure because it controls the one currency that we are forced to use under the boot of the government. Because the dollar is used as the world's reserve currency, the Federal Reserve is in some sense a single point of failure for the entire world economy.

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#306
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no threat of violence, workers' rights are a civil matter, penalties are financial. And if you don't pay the financial penalties? You go to jail... Ultimately, the government derives all its power from having a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.

If you don't pay the financial penalties your assets are seized and you go bankrupt... or not even that, in most cases, thanks to the concept of LLC. People don't go to jail for breaking workers' rights like holiday entitlements, let's not make it more dramatic than it is.

Actually, it slipped my first reading of this and probably yours too. The wording is so 'big government' that we don't even see it: If you don't pay the financial penalties your assets are seized and you go bankrupt.

Seizure of assets is violence. You can be sure I would not like my assets to be seized because I have to follow some dumb, overreaching law. But I don't have the guns.

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have the backwards? The dollar has lost 95% of its value since the creation of the Federal Reserve. Inflation with gold based currency is rare. The California Gold Rush is the big example of inflation with a gold currency. No, I don't. Firstly, the periods when the US had no national reserve bank showed either severe inflation or a depression / panic cycle that only ended with a private reserve bank being set…

Rather than refuting all of the points above, I'd like to take the discussion in a different direction. You are against allowing people to use gold as money. Is it because you are trying to save people from themselves? Perhaps it's because you are concerned about what it might do to the dollar. If that's your concern, is that not an admission that the dollar is fragile? Is it wise to run the economy with the Federal…

That's a straw man version of my argument. My concern is that the observed history shows that commodity-backed currencies lead to economic problems. I'm not in the least against people choosing to operate their personal economies around barter based on commodities, but the data is clear; it's not good for any of us to use commodities as the primary means of store and exchange of value. Just as the invention of the limited company allowed entrepreneurs to start companies that benefit us all at less risk to themselves, fiat currency's greater flexibility allows us to better control both the money supply and inflation to our collective benefit.

Besides, calling the Federal Reserve a single point of failure is at best over-dramatic. Should we also have a free market in governments? It's not really a single point of failure by any realistic definition though. The world economy is significantly interlinked and managed by the co-ordinated action of several central banks. The dollar's value is as much backed by its use as the primary international trading currency as anything, so short of Ron Paul's proposed disowning of the dollar its value is guaranteed by a large network of individual actors, all of whom have sufficient dollar holdings that they have no interest in seeing its value collapse; while it retains its status as the only payment means for the world's single largest economy, it's fine.

I'm curious what mistakes you think the Federal Reserve is making now that are causing you to suffer greatly. Inflation? Low, and (while it remains low and somewhat controlled) A Good Thing as I said before. General economic malaise? No, the FR's action on quantitative easing ensured any degree of market liquidity remained in a situation where it would otherwise have dried up almost entirely through fear of unknown and unknwable liabilities. Why would the ideal remedy to a crisis caused significantly by a loss of market liquidity be to move to a medium of exchange with little or no liquidity and what there was being outside of your control? It's madness.

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#308
post #187
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's not even a libertarian: he's perfectly fine with States grossly abridging freedom, just not the federal government. Exactly this. He's not a libertarian, he's a states rights guy because he wants the power to do things like ban abortion in Texas. I think he has a very regressive political philosophy, that would empower local governments to discriminate against minorities, women, the disenfranchised, etc. Peopl…

> He's not a libertarian, he's a states rights guy because he wants the power to do things like ban abortion in Texas. This is not inconsistent with libertarian thought. Protecting life from violence is a primary responsibility of government. If you believe that the fetus qualifies as a life at any point between conception and birth, you would be against abortion. Simple as that. If you want to fault him for believin…

You know that bacteria is "life", right? Does the government need to protect them? Obviously you intend "human life", but equally obviously that doesn't just mean living human cells (scratching -- killing skin cells -- isn't murder). The valuable thing worth protecting doesn't obviously begin at conception. On the contrary, it rather obviously doesn't.

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#309
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that Ron Paul's idea of freedom is to limit the role of the Federal Government by moving the legislative burden to each State. I can relate to the frustration that most Americans seem to have towards “Washington”, but would this really be in the best interest of the country? It's 2011, not 1787. The US is a vastly different country than it was when the idea of States Rights was created. Would the…

I do not think people or Ron Paul are talking about dismantling the federal government just limiting its powers. As the old saying goes, "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". It is extremely dangerous to give power over to a few in central government and not distribute the power evenly to all of its participants as history has shown us. I fear governments that want more power in the name of providing…

> What happened to the Soviet Union's innovation? They had a strong central government and collapsed... almost zero innovation came from them.

Yeah, what was that "putting the man in space" thing anyway?

Re: Ron Paul speaks against SOPA

#310
post #308
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's not a libertarian, he's a states rights guy because he wants the power to do things like ban abortion in Texas. This is not inconsistent with libertarian thought. Protecting life from violence is a primary responsibility of government. If you believe that the fetus qualifies as a life at any point between conception and birth, you would be against abortion. Simple as that. If you want to fault him for believin…

You know that bacteria is "life", right? Does the government need to protect them? Obviously you intend "human life", but equally obviously that doesn't just mean living human cells (scratching -- killing skin cells -- isn't murder). The valuable thing worth protecting doesn't obviously begin at conception. On the contrary, it rather obviously doesn't.

> The valuable thing worth protecting doesn't obviously begin at conception.

Please let me know at which point it becomes obvious that it is a life worth protecting. It isn't so obvious to me. There is no physiological difference between a fetus that is in a mother's womb and an infant born a few minutes later.

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