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Story: “It would be career limiting..."

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Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#301

Post by [deleted] »

prepend wrote: post #272
duped wrote: post #47

I mean this story is cathartic, but I don't get what the "rabble rousers" expected to happen. You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem for the sales/client success people. And doing it in front of a group of management, no less - that's like firing a shot across the bow, declaring that the…

I call these kinds of solutions “baby solutions” because they are impractical and assume the problem is that no one knows the “truth.” So they suggest impossible things to solve the problem. Proposing an additional 2,400 person months and increasing the schedule 50% is not a viable solution. The PM probably said the kindest thing they could instead of “no shit Sherlock.” A more useful solution would be to identify wh…

[deleted]

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#302

Post by Haga »

maest wrote: post #284
Aeolun wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> extremely toxic playerbase > drove me away to play DotA2 How toxic is the HoN playerbase if DotA2 is an improvement? I don’t think I’ve ever not enjoyed my games as much as in DotA2.

I think the difference comes down to a few things: * the existence of behaviour score together with a functional report system, which I don't think was a thing in HoN. I'm at 10k behaviour score (max) and there are generally no game ruining griefers. Some people do trash talk sometimes, but nothing too obscene. * HoN cosmetics actively encouraged players to BM one anther. e.g. the Dumpster Taunt https://www.youtube.c…

No post body was provided.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#303

Post by simplotek »

tonnydourado wrote: post #247
sillysaurusx wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanted to touch on that: one of the things you learn is that it’s better to be liked than right. We devs often fixate on whether we’re right and the other person is wrong. One specific incident comes to mind. I was working on Heroes of Newerth, a DotA clone. We achieved a bit of popularity in those days, and we reached around 50k concurrent users. So our servers tended to melt. One day, the servers went south, and…

> it’s better to be liked than right. Broadly, maybe. At work, I don't care about being liked by people that can't admit they are wrong. That doesn't being a dick to anyone I think is wrong. The whole point of telling someone that they're wrong is to correct course and fix things, and bullheaded, righteous, approaches never accomplish that. But it does mean you don't keep quite. You don't give up. You ask questions,…

> Broadly, maybe. At work, I don't care about being liked by people that can't admit they are wrong.

Why do you presume all outcomes of your eggregious interactions is placing blame on others?

It seems you are totally oblivious to some of the most basic principles of working in a professional environment: if you antagonize and attack your team members, you are not trusted to help out and have their backs. This means you are not an asset but a liability. Working close to you is making them vulnerable to being stabbed in the back by you at the slightest issue. And that's why you are not liked, even if/when you are right.

All the people can be right, but that doesn't justify you insisting on pissing on everyone else's cereals.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#304

Post by balaji1 »

mindwok wrote: post #236
balaji1 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any anecdotes of a company that was successfully split up as you suggest?

Not specific, but I have some friends who are involved in highly successful private equity firms. I was talking to one of them about the work and he was saying that one of the primary strategies large firms use is buying existing large companies and firing all the middle management, because that’s the fastest way to create value after the acquisition.

This seems to be in the vein of PE acquiring companies and cutting cost to extract value - just a sensible more strategy of firing middle management haha.

But this reminded me of a podcast episode with some PE guys. The PE was able to enhance an acquisition by issuing ESOPs to all employees and educating the employees about the structure and value of the ESOPs - Inverse of firing folks.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#305

Post by bipson »

yarg wrote: post #281
bipson wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point. What a novice usually does not realize is: It is easy to be right. What is hard is being actually helpful, coming up with a viable solution (vs. an idea). In the posted article there simply was no such solution. It was not viable. Unacceptable. Yes, an outsider with fresh eyes might see things differently and without bias, but most certainly the experienced team knows damn right that you're…

> It is easy to be right. It's easier to be wrong. In the article, the management team had already failed to do their jobs. They had already failed to notice (or ignored) obvious problems, and the company clearly had a culture that discouraged raising or acknowledging such issues. They also had failed to work with the client to establish a complete set of requirements - 9 months before the end of a multi-year project…

> It's easier to be wrong.

And it is cinsiderably harder to be actually helpful.

While everything you said is true, we and the author do not know what was previously discussed with the client. We don't know what was promised by either party, we don't know what the client messed up

Heck, I attended meetings with partners/clients that were simply impossible to get an output from, since the expectations in general were on completely different sides of the book.

But you air this out, realize that everyone agrees, most people resignate, and really helpful is this one guy, that offers to invest effort and time to work closely with a well chosen peer from the other side to get them on your side and finally work on the interesting things.

This is helpful. And it is hard.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#306

Post by mcv »

mandevil wrote: post #231
mcv wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contracts for non-Agile processes are pretty worthless too if the project happens like this. If I understand correctly, the client ended up swallowing the cost for being intentionally lied to. In an Agile process, the client would be much more closely involved with the development, attend sprint reviews, ask questions, and be available for questions about whether to drop features or extend the deadline. The client ca…

Agreed that software development outsourcing rarely works!

It can work, and it has to, because the vast majority of companies in the world simply cannot write their own software. The problem is big software companies that mostly exist to leech of those other companies' lack of understanding of software. Basically every company that outsources software still needs to have at least one person who understands software development and project management sufficiently to keep an eye on the development process and check that they're not being scammed.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#307

Post by thih9 »

3pt14159 wrote: post #275
thih9 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your point and I agree. At the same time I’d say this bigger picture is directly contributing to the secrecy and dishonesty within the firm. Not only the client is not aware what they actually want and are getting; it looks like the firm is not fully aware what they’re delivering either. I guess dealing with clients who are wrong may be a risky business.

This type of thinking is how we get ants. Ants Lana. Ants. There are real humans in the loop here. They can easily put their foot down and find another job if they get fired. These are not people at the edge of feeding their families. These are people that buy 94 octane gas at the Sunoco fuel pump for their stupid sports car. If people don't make moral decisions in their day to day lives the world gets worse. It may…

You are right too. And yet, there are 2.87 million ants per person in the world [1], and people continue to choose short term personal goals.

I guess in the end it’s about balance, i.e. being selfish won’t kill us as long as it’s not the only thing we (humans) do. But yeah, we have to keep that in mind. Or ants will be the only thing left.

[1]: https://misfitanimals.com/ants/how-many-ants-are-there-in-th...

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#308

Post by apocalyptic0n3 »

maxbond wrote: post #23
abeppu wrote: post #6

> we hadn’t even received all of the specifications from the customer that we would need to complete the project > And then one of them said “It would be career limiting if the client were to hear this.” > I’d met my responsibility to the company – and the company had threatened me as a result. The author interprets that they were threatened. But really, for whom would it be career limiting? Perhaps I'm being too cha…

If you are a manager, and you make this type of remark, do not get it twisted. You have made a threat, and you have created an adversarial situation that limits your report's ability to trust you. You've telegraphed to them that you're willing to throw them under the bus, and they will remember. If it doesn't feel like you're making a threat - it may feel to you like you're genuinely giving advice - then you have not…

Semi-related to this, but this type of statement and the reaction to it is how I discovered that I had basically assumed a manager role in all but title.

For the first little bit of my career, my coworkers and I would often joke about how the mistake one of us had made was going to get us fired. One day, I made a similar joke to another developer and was met with a look of sheer terror. Later that day, he pulled me into a room and asked me if I was serious. After doing my best to calm him down and assure him I didn't even have that type of authority, I came to realize that he viewed me as a manager even though I was technically at the same level in the org chart as he was (something that would be changed a few months later).

So that was the last time I ever made a joke about someone's job security and it made me realize that absent-minded statements from someone in a position of power are absolutely taken by others as things to be concerned about. I've been much more guarded with what I say to team members since that interaction, even those who aren't under me. It's not worth stressing your team over.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#309

Post by BWStearns »

cryptonector wrote: post #276
BWStearns wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> concoct a plan to stage the product development and release such that it gets done and you don't cost a giant contract Yes, always showing up with a solution to problems that you've surfaced is a good idea and good for your career, ... BUT: isn't coming up with a solution to this problem literally the job of the management team that they presented to? If management hears "the thing you think will happen will absolu…

It doesn't matter whose responsibility coming up with a solution is. If it isn't you but you have one and they don't, then go ahead and step on their toes -- be diplomatic and kind, but go ahead, because a) you'll be saving the firm's bacon, b) you'll be saving the customer's too, c) you'll be making your career. In TFA's case I suspect there really was no solution short of sinking a pile more cash into the project,…

Oh for sure if you have a solution then get it in front of a person who should care about it. But a lot of times they _don't_ care because they know they're going to be promoted or leave the company before the pound of flesh is due.

The problem described in TFA is that leadership was happy to ignore a problem rather than do anything. In that kind of culture you don't make your career by raising attention to issues (even with solutions, because remember, they don't really care), you get sidelined. In that kind of culture it's better to just compliment the emperor on his new duds.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#310

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th »

duped wrote: post #47

I mean this story is cathartic, but I don't get what the "rabble rousers" expected to happen. You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem for the sales/client success people. And doing it in front of a group of management, no less - that's like firing a shot across the bow, declaring that the…

They moved on, the company got hurt.

It's not an individual employees responsibility to get the company to make good decisions.

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