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Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

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Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#301

Post by MBCook »

pge wrote: post #226
machinekob wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i3/i5 12 and 13 gen? Outside m1/m2 there isn't any chip that can be compared to i5 intel 13 gen especially for PC space [that is in the same price bracket]. (maybe some arm chips can get close to i3 12100f but you can get it for 90 usd and get good single core performance so im not sure if in this price point is even any arm alternative)

what's the incentive for a chip manufacturer to put out a better ARM chip (eg comparable to the Apple M1)? I don't know that world well, so my best guess is that the margins go to the OS manufacturers, so unless you have guaranteed commitment from MSFT for a given volume, and some sharing of the margin, it's too risky to invest in the R&D to make a better ARM chip. The market for x86 chips is large and known, so for…

> what's the incentive for a chip manufacturer to put out a better ARM chip (eg comparable to the Apple M1)?

Intel & AMD’s consumer and/or server market share.

I can’t imagine going back to an Intel after an M1. The battery life is better. It’s dead silent. It doesn’t get warm. It’s like a totally different kind of object.

I know PC people (those who want Windows) aren’t interested in an M1 Mac. That’s fine.

But I see PC laptop reviews with 4 or 6 or maybe 8 hours of battery life. They get hot but the fan isn’t “too loud”. And I know the performance isn’t the same.

And I just wish reviewers would call it out. They’re not on the same level. I’m sure fanboys would complain about the comparison in every review, but why shouldn’t Windows users have something much better? It’s been proven possible. Hold AMD/Intel/Qualcomm to the fire more.

If Qualcomm could get a chip with reasonable performance at a reasonable price that just doesn’t get hot and waste all its battery playing space heater, I bet they could really get a hold on the laptop market.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#302

Post by robertlagrant »

chrisseaton wrote: post #224
vinkelhake wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, Apple's got the superior ARM silicon. But an alternative take is that this SoC is plenty fast for non-poweruser desktop use (which should be the majority of users). You don't need top shelf performance for browsing the web, checking your emails or writing some docs.

If people didn't want top-shelf performance why would they be using a desktop, instead of a phone, tablet, or laptop? Isn't performance the whole point of desktop?

Or screen size.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#303

Post by tiahura »

indrora wrote: post #153
dtx1 wrote: post #90

And here's the difference between Microsoft and Apple: When Apple switches to ARM, people believe them. When Microsoft switches to arm, people ignore them. Why? Because Microsoft only ever half-asses such changes (see the terrible SOC in this).

They have no better choice. Name me, today, a desktop class ARM SoC that isn't made by Apple and represents the median performance band of the class. Fundamentally, ARM Holdings is what Antitrust legislation was supposed to break down. They own the "ARM" name and control who can license the ARM IP and most importantly, how . Ampere, the folks behind a lot of ARM servers, are by contract barred from getting into the m…

The architecture license was acquired in 2008.

Is there any evidence that anyone has been refused a license to develop a desktop arm cpu?

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#304

Post by tokinonagare »

GeekyBear wrote: post #138
awill wrote: post #78

The difference here is that the M1 in the M1 mac mini is faster than Apple's phone SoC (the A16). The Qualcomm 8cx gen 3 (what a terrible name) in this machine is NOT faster than even Qualcomm's phone SoC (the 8 gen 1), let alone Apple's phone SoC. It's absurd to be selling a desktop PC that's weaker than a phone.

I think the point of this machine is to give Developers a test bed for apps they port to ARM Windows. However, given that it took Microsoft more than a decade to decide to port their own Visual Studio to ARM Windows, I'm not sure why they think third parties are chomping at the bit. If Microsoft wants to copy Apple, they need to copy the decision to immediately port all their first party software.

> the point of this machine is to give Developers

At 700€ price tag what a gift! It's 3-400€ too expensive for a very dispensable toy, especially given that the managed stack (.net) of Microsoft development tools can be tested on Raspberry Pi or M1, which are both very popular with developers.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#305

Post by robertlagrant »

fleddr wrote: post #295

Honestly, if Apple were to care, they could undo the course of computing history where at one point Windows became the monopoly. Launch a 500$ category laptop, say 3 gens old. That would soon be M1. Won't be very profitable, but a direct competitor to the typical crappy Windows low-end laptop. Yet it's so much better in performance, security, battery life, total lifespan, etc. Double down on making it idiot-proof. Op…

I think the build quality of the thing might be more of the cost than the difference in power. Could be wrong, though.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#307

Post by cylinder714 »

I'm stoked to see this as it's one more platform that can run OpenBSD 7.2. From the release announcement last week (https://www.openbsd.org/72.html):

    New/extended platforms:

    - Added support for Ampere Altra
    - Added support for Apple M2
    - Added support for Lenovo ThinkPad
      x13s and other machines using
      the Qualcomm Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3
      (SC8280XP) SoC.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#308

Post by sangnoir »

atarian wrote: post #145

I have a feeling that Microsoft is eventually going to follow Apple’s playbook and completely exit the desktop OS business to focus on their own line of products.

Their current strategy is the opposite of what you stated: it is to ensure MS software and services run on every imaginable product, including those made by others, including competitors. Hence XBox pass, VS Code / Edge on Linux, Office 360 on iOS/Android, etc.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#309

Post by MBCook »

Nican wrote: post #260

Jeff Atwood 5 years ago: "the Qualcomm hardware people told Google internally they were 5 years behind Apple on hardware. This was about 1.5 years ago, but I believe that's about right." ( https://twitter.com/codinghorror/status/1050538041796788225 ) And benchmarks continue to show: https://twitter.com/slightlylate/status/1584350796233117696

Someone had a battery life test for phones. The iPhones beat the android phones in nearly every test by hours. And they only had 60-70% of the raw battery capacity.

And you know they have faster processors too.

It’s so weird to me. The A series is kind of “that doesn’t count” because the competition can’t get close. The M series wowed people and then we all went back to normal AMD/Intel stuff like nothing happened.

If I want a new PC laptop, it just won’t compare because no reasonable part is available for the heat/battery life I could have gotten.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#310

Post by 1123581321 »

awill wrote: post #78

The difference here is that the M1 in the M1 mac mini is faster than Apple's phone SoC (the A16). The Qualcomm 8cx gen 3 (what a terrible name) in this machine is NOT faster than even Qualcomm's phone SoC (the 8 gen 1), let alone Apple's phone SoC. It's absurd to be selling a desktop PC that's weaker than a phone.

The Apple dev kit was about two thirds the speed of an Intel Mac Mini. Microsoft or Qualcomm hasn’t shown us what their production PC Arm chip will look like.
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