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Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

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Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#301

Post by arbuge »

anotherman554 wrote: post #203
arbuge wrote: post #181

You lose your entire Google account if you lose your 2FA device or number (assuming it's a phone number), for any reason. Even if your Google account is set up with a non-Google email address which you still have access to, and you still know the correct password. And there's nobody you can reach at Google about it, no appeals process, nothing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33098261

That link involves someone with no backup email address connected to their google account for recovery purposes, for what it's worth.

You can set a backup email address for Google accounts if they're using Google email addresses, but you can't do this if they're using non-Google email addresses as the primary address, such as the one in that link.

I'm logged in to such an account right now and there's no way to do this. The account primary email is also set as the recovery email address and there's no way to add another.

It's actually deceptive to the user to even call it a recovery email address in this case, since Google will never offer to alternatively send a verification code there if the 2FA device is unavailable.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#302

Post by Maursault »

WithinReason wrote: post #7

Just turn off 2FA

Finally. Everyone seems to assume that 2FA is a great idea, but it is, in fact, a problem in itself, and a much larger problem than unauthorized access ever was. Unauthorized access was never an ubiquitous problem like 2FA definitely is. Unauthorized access was an exception. The only UA I had heard of prior to 2FA being rolled out was with users of Yahoo Mail. I can understand that some institutions may have experienced it more because they had so many users, but 2FA punishes everyone. Just consider the sheer amount of time it has wasted since being rolled out everywhere, 30 seconds at a time. It's centuries of wasted time by now to solve an issue affecting as little as 1% of users.

And 2FA can be defeated through social engineering, and it is defeated constantly in this way. I would far preferred password requirements with 80-bits of entropy than everywhere I log into requiring I collect a 6 digit number from an email, app, SMS message, etc.

But nearly everyone here seems to think this extra little bit of work at every login is a good thing, assuming they would ever have an account compromised. Seriously, how many here ever was compromised prior to 2FA? I've been online since 1983, and I had never come across it personally until after 2FA was rolled out.

Ignoring the personal inconvenience, 2FA's inconvenience increases exponentially for every 10 users being supported. Supporting 2FA among 10K users globally, just 2FA in itself, becomes a full time job for more than one administrator, when previously, those 10K users were commonly supported by a single tech.

Frankly, I'd far far rather take the risk of unauthorized access than being strong-armed into using 2FA. The amount of time 2FA wastes is far more than the time wasted by unauthorized access. The solution is far worse than the problem ever was.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#304

Post by carapace »

warent wrote: post #198
peatmoss wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actually giving homes to the homeless would probably be cheaper than whatever we are doing now, even taking into account the mental illness and drug-abuse problems that factor into this. This point is worth reiterating. Homelessness can be solved by providing housing. Yes, homelessness is a complex multi-faceted problem, but the first order solution to the problem is to provide housing. Homelessness is a problem wi…

Unfortunately it's more complicated than this. There have been nonprofit organizations and government initiatives to give homeless people space in unoccupied hotels for example. What ends up happening is they generally just destroy the living space in a variety of ways. It's because the majority of homelessness is an issue of mental health. In the USA, there are pretty much zero mental health resources for people in…

That's a good argument for giving them some other housing arrangement. It's not an argument for leaving them on the street.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#305

Post by lotsofpulp »

judge2020 wrote: post #293
lotsofpulp wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government uses the USPS to do identify verification for passports. If it can handle identity verification for passports, why would it not be able to handle identity verification for other purposes, such as replacing or reauthorizing one’s MFA device? Hell, it should be trivial to offer federal government provided emails with ID verification with customer service in the event of loss of device/loss of ID/death…

Passports require the most paperwork out of anything - your in particular, a birth certificate, a second form of ID including a driver's license, a photo, and $130+$35. The USPS isn't just looking at a face and issuing a passport. 0The issue here is that homeless don't hold onto anything physical for 4 months; identity verification breaks down in-person immediately as shelters/libraries can't be expected to run a fac…

> Passports require the most paperwork out of anything - your in particular, a birth certificate, a second form of ID including a driver's license, a photo, and $130+$35. The USPS isn't just looking at a face and issuing a passport.

The point is the hardest part of the problem is already solved - which is the physical infrastructure and labor. As for not holding onto physical items, USPS also has little boxes that people can keep their belongings in.

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#308

Post by robertlagrant »

angry_octet wrote: post #19

This problem, and the not-my-problem responses, really highlight the self centered mindset we have encouraged. What if that homeless person was your substance-abusing sibling? A friend from school with mental health issues? We need to collectively take more responsibility for those in the worst situations. If you've every tried to teach an old person how to use 2FA you know it's an uphill battle. Using a fingerprint…

> For some people that might be their local librarians or community shelter, legal aid groups, and banks.

What's stopping any of those groups becoming a homeless person's 2FA?

Re: Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access 3 times a year

#309

Post by tbagman »

Bakary wrote: post #111
angry_octet wrote: post #19

This problem, and the not-my-problem responses, really highlight the self centered mindset we have encouraged. What if that homeless person was your substance-abusing sibling? A friend from school with mental health issues? We need to collectively take more responsibility for those in the worst situations. If you've every tried to teach an old person how to use 2FA you know it's an uphill battle. Using a fingerprint…

This is missing the forest for the trees. Of course we'd be more emotionally involved if it was someone we knew, that's not hypocritical. Most people aren't against fixing societal problems, either. As it stands, homelessness is definitely something that affects a ton of people so it definitely is our problem as long as we are city dwellers. The problem here is that misapplied empathy can lead to terrible decisions.…

Homelessness in the US is a complex problem. I found the Soft White Underbelly interview series by Mark Laita insightful when learning more about it: https://www.softwhiteunderbelly.com

Mark spent considerable time earning the trust of LA's skid row population – a large roadside tent community – and has a series of 1:1 interviews with a slice of the population, exploring their histories, challenges, preferences, and culture.

Mark doesn't believe that many (most?) of the skid row population would benefit from being provided with housing, and that issues of trauma, mental health, and childhood family environment are what he believes would have the highest leverage on the problem.

This is of course just one perspective on the problem, but Mark's perspective taught me quite a bit.

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