Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#301

Post by simion314 » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:46 PM UTC

kypro wrote: post #247

vzaliva wrote: post #110

As an engineer, I see little value in removing any sensors. No matter how noisy or limited they are, they bring additional information which, if processed, could improve overall accuracy. This is commonly referred to as "sensor fusion". So this is probably is purely cost-saving move. While I understand how radar could be expensive, I am not sure the saving on much cheaper ultrasound sensors is worth the loss of addit…

I've worked on 3d vision systems before and have experimented using different types of sensors in multi-sensor setups, and I'd argue that overwhelmingly it's a software problem. More sensors help, but passed a point it's extremely marginal, plus you're throwing the majority of the raw data away anyway. I do agree though - assuming processing power isn't a performance bottleneck here, more data is always better. But t…

>But there's a reason humans only have two eyes

You also have ears, a body that allows to move your face, your eyes can move too, and the brain has a model of the world including a model on how people thing and how would they act.

So will your Tesla have some eyes that can turn and look in all directions? would look cool to have snail like eyes.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#302

Post by ethanbond » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:46 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #283

ethanbond wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you share a source about Ford removing safety sensors on cars that were already ordered?

Ford doesn't sell cars directly. Dealers get what they get, and if this month's new cars don't have Package A then they won't sell that. This happens all the time, just go to any auto manufacturer site and configure the car you want, then call your local dealers to find one. I all but guarantee you you'll find some option package that is supposed to be available but isn't anywhere you can buy it. And that's my point.…

My understanding is that people had already paid for a specific configuration and while they were waiting for delivery of that particular car/configuration, it got changed out from under them? This understanding of how this affects existing orders could very well be completely wrong... but if it's roughly correct, then it's more analogous to not finding the desired config at the dealer, then special ordering it, then waiting 3 months for it to arrive at the dealership, then you get in the car, then they say "oh by the way we didn't have X Safety System so your car doesn't have it."

I think people would justifiably throw a hissy fit about that.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#303

Post by NikolaNovak » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:48 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #82

gwicks56 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My $20k Mazda won't allow me to rear-end somebody even if cruise control is switched off. Neither will my wife Subaru.

Do people actually try this? I'm pretty sure my Subaru does the same. But I'm not brave enough to actually try a rear-end. I've been thinking of getting a big cardboard box to try with, but so far it's only an idea :)

I tested it a little bit during the 2019 Honda Odyssey test drive. It seemed to work.

FWIW, Then unintentionally I had a bit of real world confirmation: a few months ago a car in front of me in slow traffic made a very sudden and complete stop.

I stepped on the brakes; after a second, as I slowed down, the brake feel completely changed and became harder, and I realized that I hadn't been alone - initially, car was braking for/with me, as confirmed with the massive orange letters on the dash board. Then as the system felt it was out of most immediate danger, it released and it was just me braking (that was the brake pedal feel change).

I do occasionally have it engage stage 1 of 3 (1 Visual -> 2 Audio -> 3 Auto Brake). It happens once a month predictable on very slight curves when it thinks I may be accelerating into oncoming traffic.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#304

Post by ajross » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 2:57 PM UTC

ethanbond wrote: post #302

ajross wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ford doesn't sell cars directly. Dealers get what they get, and if this month's new cars don't have Package A then they won't sell that. This happens all the time, just go to any auto manufacturer site and configure the car you want, then call your local dealers to find one. I all but guarantee you you'll find some option package that is supposed to be available but isn't anywhere you can buy it. And that's my point.…

My understanding is that people had already paid for a specific configuration and while they were waiting for delivery of that particular car/configuration, it got changed out from under them? This understanding of how this affects existing orders could very well be completely wrong... but if it's roughly correct, then it's more analogous to not finding the desired config at the dealer, then special ordering it, then…

> I think people would justifiably throw a hissy fit about that.

FWIW, that would be a better argument if the people throwing the hissy fit were the ones who actually ordered cars. Are you waiting on a Tesla, for example? Instead it's the peanut gallery of folks who just want to flog a point about the manufacturer out of some kind of emotional response. Like I said, it's exhausting.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#305

Post by yonaguska » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:09 PM UTC

cameronh90 wrote: post #281

yonaguska wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flashlight's have come a long way. I much prefer that to using my phone, especially on Android where opening the camera can be finicky and turning on the lamp requires a ridiculous amount of steps compared to the iPhones. Especially handy if out in the cold with gloves. Armytek prime c2 pro is pretty great.

I do love a good torch, and I keep one on me most of the time. However, I meant non-illuminated phone camera. The new low light sensors combined with AI is incredible. They can see things when it looks pitch black to me. Also not sure how opening a camera is finicky, just double tap the power button and it opens for me, and turning on the flash takes two taps - though I rarely use the flash.

Sounds like I need a new phone then. I'm still on the pixel 3.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#306

Post by dotancohen » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:10 PM UTC

tyfon wrote: post #258

fastball wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often would you say you get false positives with your Model 3?

I have a model X raven (2019) and model 3 awd (late 2021), both have radar and hw3, and both have the update that has disabled the radar. Pre-patch there was maybe a phantom brake (hard brake) every six months, but lots of small slowdowns where you could almost sense the car got conflicting input (once pr 100 km maybe). The latter is gone and I have not had any phantom brakes yet, but I've had a slow down where a bus…

  > The only regression I've found is that it's a bit more confused in a local spot where the road splits in two in a turn to the right.

Since the issue is reproducible, you should find a bug on it. Tesla is responsive and this will help everybody.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#307

Post by jjcon » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:24 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #161

jjcon wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>an catch up to and exceed the visual processing capabilities of vertebrates with their millions of years of evolution I mean tons of technology outperforms humans by a mile... plenty of other computer vision systems already outperform people so not sure why Tesla would be exempt here due to 'evolution'.

We don't have any computer vision system that outperforms mammals, let alone humans, at general vision, Tesla or not - especially on real 3D vision. We do have computer systems that outperform humans at extremely specialized tasks, such as facial recognition in photos.

Again though - these sensors performed a highly specialized task - there is no inherent reason Tesla wouldn’t be able to outperform them with a specialized visual system

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#308

Post by 2III7 » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 4:19 PM UTC

yonaguska wrote: post #273

cameronh90 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern sensors combined with computational photography does seem to be changing this though. For example, I now use my phone camera to see where I'm going at night if it's dark, and to read distant text. This is despite my (corrected) eyesight being better than 20/20 and I have better than usual night vision. The eyes are fantastic organs, but the thing that makes them exceptional is the brain. Computers seem to be c…

Flashlight's have come a long way. I much prefer that to using my phone, especially on Android where opening the camera can be finicky and turning on the lamp requires a ridiculous amount of steps compared to the iPhones. Especially handy if out in the cold with gloves. Armytek prime c2 pro is pretty great.

Why do you have to open the camera in order to use the flashlight on an android phone? The button to turn the flashlight on is in the quick settings panel which can also be opened from the lock screen.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#309

Post by tsimionescu » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 4:28 PM UTC

jjcon wrote: post #307

tsimionescu wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't have any computer vision system that outperforms mammals, let alone humans, at general vision, Tesla or not - especially on real 3D vision. We do have computer systems that outperform humans at extremely specialized tasks, such as facial recognition in photos.

Again though - these sensors performed a highly specialized task - there is no inherent reason Tesla wouldn’t be able to outperform them with a specialized visual system

The problem of using computer vision to compute distances to moving 3D objects in any weather conditions is too general - it is precisely the generalized vision problem I was talking about.

Ultrasonic or radar or lidar sensors are much simpler solutions to the problem of computing distances, as they do not rely on computer vision.

Note that the reason this problem is very hard for computer vision is that there is simply not enough information in a 2D picture to get 3D distance information, even with parallax. Our eyes also can't solve this problem. Instead, our visual system uses numerous heuristics based on our inherent understanding of simple classical physics and the world around us.

For example, we recognize that a particular blob of color represents a car, and that cars are solid objects, where each part of the car moves at the same speed as each other part (this assumption breaks if something flies off the car). We recognize that objects throw shadows, and what effect shadows have on color, so we can very easily tell the contours of an object even if it's speckled in light and shadow. We also know what approximate sizes cars are, and that means we can immediately differentiate a far away car from a close one. We also know that cars sitting on the road are probably moving, while cars on the sidewalk are probably parked, and that again helps us estimate their movement based on relatively little data.

If you don't believe that depth perception is based on far more than parallax, just try to explain how come people/animals with a single eye can still estimate distances to a very good degree (not enough to be marksmen, but more than enough not to run into walls).

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#310

Post by MarkMarine » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 4:34 PM UTC

bob778 wrote: post #257

techdragon wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having slightly more than average (researched the industry as an outsider) knowledge of industrial robotics. It turns out million dollar industrial robots are kind of like enterprise software. You "buy" an ERP/CRM/etc but it doesn't just work out of the box, theres weeks and months of work-hours needed to try and get it actually integrated into a company, and it still might not work since software has bugs, humans ar…

As an insider of the automated manufacturing space, your ERP analogy is good but missing one detail: every other large company eventually gets an ERP working. Tesla is an outlier in regard to their manufacturing processes and even much lower margin industries tend to design new factories around the automation platform yet Tesla just...doesn't? I've never worked with Tesla so have no inside info on their situation but…

More silly than that. It’s like saying they can’t get ERP from Oracle or whomever to work, so they are going to build their own ERP from scratch, it’ll do more and be 1/1000 the price.