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Apple Car: Bad Idea After All

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Re: Apple Car: Bad Idea After All

#301

Post by steveBK123 »

fdye wrote: post #26

So I've always wondered if Apple actually building a 'car' was ever really the goal. It seems like a skunkworks where they try crazy things and then incorporate into Carplay. Future seems to be ever expanding Carplay support. I use it and probably would not buy another car that did not have it integrated. I imagine car manufacturers are somewhat tired of always building HUDs and in vehicle control systems. So gradual…

Agree Apple is using it as a play ground for CarPlay and never going to ship an actual car. Maybe at project inception that was a possible delivery. At this point with legacy makers actually making competent EV offerings.. no.

Car market has many challenges that cause production and sales to scale slowly. Even if they outsource manufacturing, like Fisker has down with Magna (which no one has done at the many many millions scale Apple would need to).. what about service centers?

Next cars face various tax, tariff and regulatory challenges far beyond any market Apple participates in today. They couldn't simply make the cars in Shenzhen and ship them across easily. Almost certainly some non-trivial amount of assembly would need to happen domestically which means a US workforce and potential union concerns. This is due both to tariffs and to maximize applicability of the new EV tax credit law.

Further, I don't think Apple likely brings any special sauce to ADAS/Autonomy, and its a hard challenge many of the current players underestimate & overpromise.

Oh and repairability and granularity of components/modules. EVs need to be serviceable in ways that phones/tablets/Macs are not. Car needs to be designed for this, and parts supply networks need to exist. This is not an Apple forte.

All this to enter a traditionally low margin, boom&bust industry? No thanks.

Re: Apple Car: Bad Idea After All

#302

Post by brewdad »

solardev wrote: post #294
babyshake wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Future seems to be ever expanding Carplay support. I use it and probably would not buy another car that did not have it integrated. What specifically about Carplay makes it so important, versus the non-Carplay equivalents that other modern cars have?

It doesn't suck as much. OEM car UIs are terrible.

My wife's car isn't that old (2017 model) but using the navigation is a painful experience. Inputting an address takes multiple minutes and can only be done by turning a knob one letter at a time. First, state. Then city. (There is no defaulting to current location, so this must be done every time). Then street name and finally numerical address. If any of these items aren't in the database, you get to go back and start over or try for the hopefully nearest address that is in the system. It's a mess but sometimes necessary.

It also no longer gets traffic updates since the modem is 3G with no upgrade path currently. It does not support AA or Carplay. I hate it but she loves the way it drives, so we'll be keeping it for a while.

Re: Apple Car: Bad Idea After All

#303

Post by marticode »

jononomo wrote: post #102

I wish Toyota would partner with Apple for their internal maps, screen, controls, etc. Toyota seems to have a major problem with intuitive usability (especially for my parents who are in their 80s). Toyota is the largest car company in the world and makes the most reliable vehicles in the world, but they need that extra touch to take them to the next level. Just as I would never by a phone that is not an iPhone, or a…

...or Toyota could just use Android Automotive, which exists today as a full OS for cars.

Re: Apple Car: Bad Idea After All

#305

Post by giobox »

jolux wrote: post #292
mr_toad wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> auto-makers are in no rush to become just a dumb pipe for apple or google's driving software The cellphone carriers and manufacturers wanted control too. They both used to dictate what you did with your phone. Apple wouldn’t be the Apple we know today if it hadn’t up-ended that market. I can’t really see Apple producing something so good that it makes all other car manufacturers efforts look like crap, but then mos…

CarPlay is already there as far as I'm concerned. Vastly better than the built-in UI of my car (VW), which is filled with ugly graphics, annoying, slow animations, and poor organization.

I agree in most cases, with the main exception of Tesla. While not perfect, the responsiveness/design/ease of use in their cars is generally consistent and well executed. I'd still take Tesla's OS over CarPlay, personally, given the choice.

Re: Apple Car: Bad Idea After All

#306

Post by deepGem »

fdye wrote: post #26

So I've always wondered if Apple actually building a 'car' was ever really the goal. It seems like a skunkworks where they try crazy things and then incorporate into Carplay. Future seems to be ever expanding Carplay support. I use it and probably would not buy another car that did not have it integrated. I imagine car manufacturers are somewhat tired of always building HUDs and in vehicle control systems. So gradual…

But why won't Apple possibly build a device like comma.ai to basically fit into the car's OBD port and also bring in some self driving abilities and eventually full self driving, just by a completely new device that pairs to the iPhone. They can possibly strong arm autos to make the plug and play real smooth. It's not that far fetched. They might actually be able to do something using mixed reality, given how either pure vision based or lidar based self driving approaches are still not reaching the levels they were supposed to years ago.

This could be under the usual AI umbrella like other companies, but the fact that there is an AI DR to Tim Cook makes me think self driving is big on the agenda. I"m not sure which other AI effort is so valuable to Apple to warrant a SVP. https://www.apple.com/in/leadership/john-giannandrea/

Re: Apple Car: Bad Idea After All

#307

Post by giobox »

mr_toad wrote: post #281
giobox wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a fair take, and I've had similar thoughts too. However, one thing computer industry people don't seem to get is how much the idea of Apple owning the "dials" on the instrument cluster as shown in the keynote this year will likely go down like a cup of cold sick at most European auto makers. In many cases the designs or colors used in the dial faces have decades of brand history behind them. Regardles…

> auto-makers are in no rush to become just a dumb pipe for apple or google's driving software The cellphone carriers and manufacturers wanted control too. They both used to dictate what you did with your phone. Apple wouldn’t be the Apple we know today if it hadn’t up-ended that market. I can’t really see Apple producing something so good that it makes all other car manufacturers efforts look like crap, but then mos…

One thing that is different regarding cars is that car industry executives have the benefit of hindsight here. Apple was not a trillion dollar business in 2007, in 2022 everyone pays attention.

Apple's business model is clear; they would hoover up any profits that might arise via new in car software business models. Apple's success in reducing cellular carriers to dumb pipes will be the cautionary tale every car CEO in the world is familiar with.

Re: Apple Car: Bad Idea After All

#308

Post by jononomo »

smileysteve wrote: post #259
jononomo wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much would it cost for Apple to take a 10% stake in Toyota? Doesn't Apple have a couple hundred billion dollars just lying around in cash?

why buy 10% of Toyota when they could buy 100% of Ford (49.7bn market cap) with 90% cash on hand.

Because Toyota makes reliable cars. As I noted above, I would never buy a car that is not a Toyota. If you want to be flashy, you get a BMW, but it you want to fight a war in the Middle East you get a Toyota Land Cruiser. Don't dismiss the reliability of Toyotas -- they really have it figured out.

Re: Apple Car: Bad Idea After All

#309

Post by m463 »

giobox wrote: post #248
fdye wrote: post #26

So I've always wondered if Apple actually building a 'car' was ever really the goal. It seems like a skunkworks where they try crazy things and then incorporate into Carplay. Future seems to be ever expanding Carplay support. I use it and probably would not buy another car that did not have it integrated. I imagine car manufacturers are somewhat tired of always building HUDs and in vehicle control systems. So gradual…

I think this is a fair take, and I've had similar thoughts too. However, one thing computer industry people don't seem to get is how much the idea of Apple owning the "dials" on the instrument cluster as shown in the keynote this year will likely go down like a cup of cold sick at most European auto makers. In many cases the designs or colors used in the dial faces have decades of brand history behind them. Regardles…

I can't help but compare to what happened with the wireless carriers with their crippled "smart" phones before steve jobs convinced AT&T to take the iPhone 1.

Re: Apple Car: Bad Idea After All

#310

Post by jononomo »

blinkingled wrote: post #280
jononomo wrote: post #102

I wish Toyota would partner with Apple for their internal maps, screen, controls, etc. Toyota seems to have a major problem with intuitive usability (especially for my parents who are in their 80s). Toyota is the largest car company in the world and makes the most reliable vehicles in the world, but they need that extra touch to take them to the next level. Just as I would never by a phone that is not an iPhone, or a…

Right, give up all control over infotainment to Apple of all companies - that'll surely work well for them. At least with something open source they retain some control. Besides Toyota has already got you and me both because they're who they are - and part of that is they are actively involved with their suppliers and even own them in part.

Wouldn't having the largest fleet of cars in the world be great for Apple Maps? That would be an fantastic way to disrupt Google from that space.
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