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Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

reuters.com

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Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#301
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, its not like Biden didn't make the statement that he'd do exactly this. If him admitting that it was a plan isn't enough for you, I don't think your myopia is going to be altered by any further discussion.

Exactly this? He said he was going to blow it up?

He ambiguously stated that the US would "find a way to make sure Nord Stream is done for good".

Policy hasn't worked, in years. In spite of the US' worst efforts, Nord Stream was built and completed and could actually be used to peacefully engage in energy economy between Russia and Europe.

This alliance is intolerable to the USA, so: the last act was destruction.

Lets see, anyway. Evidence is going to be important on this case.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#302
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. It's most probably an inside job.

You are saying someone crawled inside the pipelines and punctured them from within?

I just heard energy analyst krutikhin explain on the news that Gazprom could have blown them up using so called "pigs", maintenance drones that move through the pipes.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#303
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say not being able to buy Russian gas is good for EU. Supporting evil empire by buying gas is bad not just for European souls but also for long-term stability, as we can see.

Most of us "European souls" would prefer to stay warm throughout the winter. It seems quite clear to me that in the short and medium term this ideological stance isn't going to hurt "evil Russian empire" a whole lot, while being extremely disruptive and harmful to everyone in the EU.

Nobody in EU will be in danger of freezing due to lack of gas. There is enough if gas coming from other places than Russia and the governments are mostly subsidizing it.

I don't know why people keep repeating this lie, do they want to support Russia so badly?

The real risk for Europe is a recession due to gas prices for industrial use - but that would mostly impact extremely rich places, like Germany.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#304
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a conspiracy: Biden himself stated - quite publically - that they would do it. It has been done. Did you not read the quote? Besides which, the US unilaterally gives itself the right to do these sorts of things at its own discretion on a regular basis.

It's certainly a conspiracy in the sense that the USA and its functionaries are not going to be coming out and directly saying "sure, we blew up Nordstream to remove a Russian bargaining chip and prevent Germany from suing for peace."

They've also not publicised the plan. That stays secret. The plan is the conspiracy.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#305

Without a doubt US American sabotage. During the days and weeks leading up to Russia's move into Ukraine, the US rhetorized over and over again about Nord Stream. All the time the main issue was that the EU must not buy LNG from Russia, it must agree to USAs "energy dominance" politics and buy LNG from them and only them. This is a way to make sure that when winter comes, the EU has nowhere to go for LNG but to the U…

But the US have limited export capabilities, and Europe is going to turn to Norway, Algeria and Qatar. If it is the US, I would say it's only to destabilize the Putin regime, Russia's economy, to generate protests, and make a coup. But I would wait before making any guess.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is far away It is not far away. There's Germany, then Poland and then war. We have refugees here and feel the impact on our day to day life.

You forgot the part about vast land in Ukraine (the biggest country in Europe) since the fighting is on the other (Eastern) end. Heck west of Ukraine is hardly affected by war in daily life, why do you think Western politicians visit even Kiev if there is such horrible "war" ongoing, why is McDonald's operating, toyshops etc. Odd war if you ask me if it's business as usual in most of the country, feels more like thea…

What an ignorant comment. What do you expect, that there's fighting everywhere? People looting at night and society near anarchy? We have two state actors with roughly equal capabilities. It's not US&Allies vs Iraq.

Western ukraine is not "hardly affected", it is affected. There are many refugees, probably everyone knows someone fighting in the east. You might look to fight in the east as well if you're in the right age bracket! Economy is shit and people are training to rotate to the front. Putin is waging a brutal war, killing and torturing ukrainians. There are air raid warning in kyiv, kyiv pride happened underground! Yes the government is corrupt, but we have to help them fight this monster.

It's also not an odd war, industrial societies maintain industrial capabilities to wage industrial war. WW1 was fought on the west in mostly static battles. Neither Berlin or Paris were affected by bombs, less than easter ukraine for sure! And they fought for years. Even in WW2 society largely functioned until the end in germany (if it was not bombed to shit!). It's interesting to see the logistics of everyday life near the end of WW2 in germany, you expect everything to end up in total chaos but everyone with a job just continued doing their job. Why not? dairy farmers still produced milk and shipped it off, and quite a lot of the railways worked.

We see ukrainian flags here in a small town in germany, recently they celebrated something in public (maybe their independence?) and we got into a converstantion, we have refugees starting to study here etc. Heating prices are through the roof and I can't really afford to heat my room, al because of this stupid fu*ing war. War affects you even if you don't have bombs falling onto your head! In whole WW2 only like two or three bombs were thrown onto the small city (~80k) I am currently living in. War doesn't mean everything is blowing up all the time.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#307

I bet my left nut that in 50 years we'll learn it was a US operation https://youtu.be/OS4O8rGRLf8?t=95

Why not Ukrainian? I don't understand why wouldn't they want to perform this sabotage against their open enemies? Even openly? I'm wondering why this didn't happen sooner.

For Ukraine, it's better to confiscate NS as a compensation for the war, so it better to keep it off and intact, until it will be Ukrainian.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#308

Without a doubt US American sabotage. During the days and weeks leading up to Russia's move into Ukraine, the US rhetorized over and over again about Nord Stream. All the time the main issue was that the EU must not buy LNG from Russia, it must agree to USAs "energy dominance" politics and buy LNG from them and only them. This is a way to make sure that when winter comes, the EU has nowhere to go for LNG but to the U…

"Without a doubt"

That phrase doesn't mean what you think it means.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#309
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of us "European souls" would prefer to stay warm throughout the winter. It seems quite clear to me that in the short and medium term this ideological stance isn't going to hurt "evil Russian empire" a whole lot, while being extremely disruptive and harmful to everyone in the EU.

Nobody in EU will be in danger of freezing due to lack of gas. There is enough if gas coming from other places than Russia and the governments are mostly subsidizing it. I don't know why people keep repeating this lie, do they want to support Russia so badly? The real risk for Europe is a recession due to gas prices for industrial use - but that would mostly impact extremely rich places, like Germany.

You can say that the governments are going to take care of them in the short term and you're probably right. It's unlikely that (m)any people are going to freeze to death, but it's still going to result in countless days, weeks, even months of uncertainty and anxiety for those people. There will be a toll.

Even with subsides and a social support net, we're still kicking the can down the road. The bill WILL come due and it's going to hit those who are poor and "lower middle class" the hardest, as always.

People are increasingly in need of food donations and financial support with skyrocketing energy prices. Similarly, donations have decreased and every charity in my country is running thin on resources. Elderly and other vulnerable populations are especially at risk here as they might not have the resources to even reach out for help and follow through any bureaucracy.

I don't support Russia, I hope they lose and dissolve into irrelevance, but I take a serious issue with the often-repeated viewpoint that brushes all of this suffering aside like it's not a big deal, only to claim that we are all too happy to lower the thermostat by 3 degrees and take some kind of collective stance that will meaningfully contribute to destruction of Russia.

The suffering is greater than most people are willing to admit, meanwhile its effectiveness is questionable at best. I simply don't believe that energy imports from Russia are what's keeping the war going in any meaningful fashion, something that we could easily change if we just stopped importing their gas.

I'd love to be proven wrong on this, but so far I've only seen handwavy explanations that don't amount to anything more than "every little bit probably helps".

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#310
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody in EU will be in danger of freezing due to lack of gas. There is enough if gas coming from other places than Russia and the governments are mostly subsidizing it. I don't know why people keep repeating this lie, do they want to support Russia so badly? The real risk for Europe is a recession due to gas prices for industrial use - but that would mostly impact extremely rich places, like Germany.

You can say that the governments are going to take care of them in the short term and you're probably right. It's unlikely that (m)any people are going to freeze to death, but it's still going to result in countless days, weeks, even months of uncertainty and anxiety for those people. There will be a toll. Even with subsides and a social support net, we're still kicking the can down the road. The bill WILL come due a…

The gas is not standing by itself, Russia refused to sell it as a reaction to Western help to Ukraine and sanctions. Getting it running again would require nations to go beg to Russia, who would probably ask for all the sanctions removed and help to Ukraine stop.

But I'm pretty sure both US and various EE countries would not want to do that, leading to fracture and instability in EU and NATO in pretty critical time. For example people of Poland, which hosts literally millions of Ukrainian refugees would probably freak out if what they see as "rich west people" start complaining about money and ask for support for Ukraine to stop because gas is now expensive.

To summarise, we can't buy the Russian gas because they would ask us to do unacceptable things for it, and it would probably destroy EU from within. That's my take at least.

Also seems that someone is taking that choice away now, with blowing up Nord Stream.

As for the impact of sanctions and the energy war, I'm not an expert but I find Perun's videos pretty insightful - but I admit "hour long powerpoint presentation by military analyst on youtube" is pretty strange genre. This video touches on sanctions, economy and the energy war: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce5TR-qWCk4

You're right I was pretty blasé about the suffering of people, and partially it's because I live pretty close to Ukraine, but still I shouldn't have.

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