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What I’ve learned from users

paulgraham.com

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Re: What I’ve learned from users

#301

Post by dredmorbius »

sdwr wrote: post #254
maroonblazer wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once dated a girl whose dad's idea of a fun Saturday was to spend the day at a car dealership to see how low a price he could negotiate for a car. He'd always walk away, regardless of how low they went. I thought that was hilarious.

Jesus, that just feels cruel to me.

The car salesman practices this every day.

The buyer might practice this 4--20 times in a lifetime. At the high end, that's only a month's experience for the salesperson.

Consider it a form of practice which might save many thousands of dollars in time.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#302

Post by cafard »

sgustard wrote: post #110
phpthrowaway99 wrote: post #94

PGs take on why early stage VCs gain so much experience reminds me of my opinions on why car sales is the best sales experience. I sold cars for almost a decade and was pretty good at it averaging 30 cars a month. That means every year I helped people sign for $16 million of products. In the end I probably sold 3000 cars for over $100 million. (Note, I stayed in it way too long. I think most of these benefits would c…

One thing I learned about the industry is that dealership salespeople are hired from the same pool as, say, McDonalds employees. These are not college graduates who have white-collar job offers. They join with no existing skills at low wage. Turnover is massive, the average sales agent leaves within a year. Meanwhile, the whole industry is pushing hard to adopt Tesla's model of fixed pricing and replacing people with…

That has not been my impression of the sales staff on the comparatively few times I've been to dealerships (four times since 1991 or so).

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#303

Post by bluGill »

vl wrote: post #274
bluGill wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you have a trade in as this is one area where they can still get you. Do those fixed price dealers count their various add-ons (rust proofing, extended warranty...) in the fixed price or not. These add-ons are how most dealers make money (that and warranty work)

For trade-in compare price they offer to Carmax (including taxes and fees adjustment), if less, just sell to Carmax. Whatever is on the sale sheet is included. You can order extra stuff, they will install it for you, but obviously it’s not included in the advertised price.

Sure, but "smart dealers" won't tell your trade in is worth, instead they give you final payment after your trade in, and they often won't tell you how long the loan term is for.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#304

Post by dredmorbius »

paxys wrote: post #155
phpthrowaway99 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have been saying this for 20 years. Yet car salespeople are more important than ever from what I've seen. But let's ignore that because you could argue it's just opinion. My favorite example/rebuttal to this is: Imagine a car sales evolves to basically vending machines. You walk up to the box, pick a car, swipe your card, and a roll-up door opens and your car pops out. Amazing! No salespeople needed. Every tow…

Who was saying this 20 years ago? eCommerce was barely a thing back then. Smartphones, YouTube and Twitter didn't exist. The only people who knew about new cars and their features were enthusiasts who got a dozen magazine subscriptions. The difference is that today there are actually companies successfully following this model, Tesla being the most prominent example. All other manufacturers want to cut down on the ma…

As others have noted, Saturn Corporation was an automobile company which was premised on no-hassle sales, and was founded in 1987.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Corporation>

I recall a number of stories of "automobile vending machines", and believe there may have been some early instances based out of Dubai or China, though the earliest online stories I'm finding presently are from the 2012--2014 period, about one decade ago, not two. That said, the concept surely occurred to someone prior to that.

Wired, 2014: https://archive.ph/JkbfK>. Chinese EV rental by Kandi. Discussed on Slashdot at the time: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/12/28/1630208/next-carsha...>

And an early story about Carvana from 2013, via The Car Connection: https://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1088617_would-you-buy-...>

Google Books finds a snippet from a 1990 book, here: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Implementing_Japanese_A...>

"Think back to the Automobile Vending Machine concept presented earlier...", in Implementing Japanese AI Techniques: Turning the Tables for a Winning Strategy by Richard Tabor Greene.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#306

Post by GrinningFool »

q-big wrote: post #290
jraby3 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t it matter what they are “selling” after work hours? I was a salesman 20+ years ago and still engage in up selling my friends. But it’s usually to get them to engage in healthy activities like working out, going for a walk, or eating healthy; or to get them to try a new experience like tasting a new food or being more honest/kind to their loved ones. Sometimes I wonder if I’m exhausting to them or they appreci…

Some people insanely detest being manipulated - even if it is for their own good (that's at least what the manipulating person claims). I personally observe this "manipulation-detesting" character trait in particular to be prevalent in hacker circles. By the way: this is also a reason that I see why so many hackers date differently from the typical population since dating is about manipulating the other side to love…

> since dating is about manipulating the other side to love one.

Sounds like you're doing it wrong.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#307

Post by waylandsmithers »

phpthrowaway99 wrote: post #141
geph2021 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience[1], interacting with the salesperson and agreeing on the cars' price is about 25% of the sale process (and hassle). The salesperson nails down price, model/unit, with the customer, which already involves all manner of sleazy games on pricing. After the "sale", there's a much longer gauntlet of pitfalls and traps to navigate: extended warranties, add-ons (roof racks, floor mats, etc...), financing, tr…

I agree, the "finance person" that technically does your paperwork and pitches you all those aftermarket products is the biggest crook in the industry (right next to the service advisors that tell you what service your car needs and the price). I would sometimes fill in for finance on a rainy day, and even though I was top 0.3% in the country when it came to car sales, I Couldn't sell that garbage even with a gun poi…

Is there any magic phrase you can say to this person to get them to stop? I've leased 5 or 6 cars from the same dealership which is all around great except for this one part.

For example the green energy clipboard person trying to get you to switch power companies, you can tell them that you rent and there is no comeback.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#308

Post by throwaway2037 »

jraby3 wrote: post #263
throwaway2037 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"creeping boiler room effect" -- I never saw this phrase before. I like it. This is the reason that I personally avoid sales people (outside of work / socially). To me: Sales is fundamentally about upselling -- selling you more than you need. How can people do this 8 hours per day, then go home and pretend they are not a sales person? Every GOOD sales person tells me they are "only like that at work". No, they are no…

Doesn’t it matter what they are “selling” after work hours? I was a salesman 20+ years ago and still engage in up selling my friends. But it’s usually to get them to engage in healthy activities like working out, going for a walk, or eating healthy; or to get them to try a new experience like tasting a new food or being more honest/kind to their loved ones. Sometimes I wonder if I’m exhausting to them or they appreci…

I appreciate that you have good intention, but I don't like it. I sincerely try to avoid sales people. Only when absolutely necessary. And dating sales people is hell. I made that mistake a couple of times. Only with real distance could I see they were always try to manipulate me to do something for them. It was exhausting.

I think the hacker (non-sales) style is to lead by example, not spend so much effort trying to convince others with words. "Deeds lead" for hackers.

For example, instead of trying to directly convince a very unhealthy co-worker to eat less junk food, I might talk about my own struggles with junk food eating... or say that I am trying to cut down. Or exercise more. Or whatever. But focus on myself and my own actions and the messages they emit... rather that trying to directly manipulate the other person with words only.

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#309

Post by throwaway2037 »

q-big wrote: post #290
jraby3 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t it matter what they are “selling” after work hours? I was a salesman 20+ years ago and still engage in up selling my friends. But it’s usually to get them to engage in healthy activities like working out, going for a walk, or eating healthy; or to get them to try a new experience like tasting a new food or being more honest/kind to their loved ones. Sometimes I wonder if I’m exhausting to them or they appreci…

Some people insanely detest being manipulated - even if it is for their own good (that's at least what the manipulating person claims). I personally observe this "manipulation-detesting" character trait in particular to be prevalent in hacker circles. By the way: this is also a reason that I see why so many hackers date differently from the typical population since dating is about manipulating the other side to love…

Q Biggie: You hit the nail on the head. Most hackers I know are thinking "run away" when they see / hear a sales person. "Oh fu-k, what are these people trying to sell or make me do?" When I re-read this post, I feel the same about senior technical management that does nothing more than powerpoint, email, meetings, and phone/vid calls. The last time they wrote code or did anything technical was (frequently) never, or so long ago that the technology sounds like an archeological dig!

Re: What I’ve learned from users

#310

Post by zamfi »

phpthrowaway99 wrote: post #154
suzzer99 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly I waited tables for 5 years. That experience has been a massive boost to putting myself in end users' shoes when designing systems.

I think any work that puts you in direct personal contact with thousands of people is going to be valuable. I sometimes used to think how fun being a waiter could be compared to car sales, because the interaction in nowhere near as tense and adversarial. In the best of sales, you quickly become and stay friendly with people, but the bottom 25% are mini wars and that beats on you after a while.

100% agree here -- and you don't necessarily need to "work" such a job! I volunteered at a farmers market for a couple years and it gave me a fantastic view of people outside my bubble.
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