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Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

spiegel.de

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Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#301

Post by acdha »

fsh wrote: post #56
lolinder wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a difference between the kind of gas used in power plants and the kind for residential use? If not, couldn't nuclear plants reduce the need for gas in power plants, allowing that gas to go to heating homes instead?

There is currently almost no gas used for electricity generation in Europe (much too expensive). Even under normal conditions, heating and industry consume an order of magnitude more gas than electricity generation.

Do you a citation for that? It seems unlikely that 20-25% of EU electrical generation shifted in the last couple of years. Solar has been cutting demand for more-expensive gas but 20% is still far more than “almost no”.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=51258

> Starting in 2016, consumption of natural gas in Europe’s electric power sector increased as a result of the systematic retirement of coal-fired power plants across Europe and the retirement of nuclear power plants in Germany in particular.

https://ember-climate.org/insights/research/european-electri...

> Fossil gas power declined 8% since 2019, generating 18% of EU electricity (524 TWh).

I think the underlying discrepancy might be explained by electricitymaps.com reporting real-time usage. It would be very easy to believe that today's usage is not representative of an entire year when you're looking at a brief interval in summer when solar is running at maximum efficiency, heating needs are non-existent, and everyone on the continent has been reacting to the possibility that there might be a gas shortage at any time.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#302

Post by hans1729 »

stingraycharles wrote: post #290
hans1729 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When covid hit, governments across Germany realized wait, we need videoconferencing for students! . For the prime ministers and their ministers of education, this meant they could either shine in comparison to the others, or the opposition would rip them apart in the next election. Suddenly: money everywhere, zero red tape, worry about compliance later, get it done now . So, if the political will is there, things are…

So the conclusion is that they don’t yet believe the danger is imminent? As a Dutch person whose country is equally dependent on gas (but happens to be sitting on gas as well, which can’t be used for political reasons), I’m flabbergasted by the optimism of the politicians. Yes, it may be fine, but why bet on it? Why isn’t there more central EU coordination in case there actually will be a gas shortage, and we need to…

>Why isn’t there more central EU coordination in case there actually will be a gas shortage, and we need to divide the gas?

Look no further than back to early Covid again, remember the disparities and chaos wrt borders? When people finally realized the potential gravity of the situation, politicians went full "each man to himself". Saying "we distribute gas elsewhere while you are freezing" isn't part of any regular elected politicians playbook, don't you think?

To your first question, I haven't met anyone who openly doubts he'll be fine personally. The situation is tense, but not meteor heading towards dortmund tense.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#303

Post by theplumber »

bonzini wrote: post #280
theplumber wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turkey may start acting lunatic as well.

Sure but Norway is the only EU state that has a decent amount of gas or oil, and at least Turkey is on the NATO side. Politically it's messy, but at least militarily it's fine.

More reasons to leave oil and gas behind.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#304

Post by 1234letshaveatw »

jamesrr39 wrote: post #197
1234letshaveatw wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my god- the EU redistributed tax revenue from member countries to fund 100% of home improvements in Italy? I can't even imagine.

You don't have to imagine, it is commonplace around the world. Lots of tax revenue from countries all around the world is distributed to different areas of the country/world (obvious e.g. foreign aid). If the amount of tax isn't excessive, allows everyone to have a good standard of living, and is resulting in something positive, why not?

As a US citizen, there is no way I would stand for getting taxed to pay 100% of a home improvement bill in Canada. In hindsight, brexit is starting to look pretty damn smart

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#305

Post by nisa »

mythrwy wrote: post #291
excieve wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're actually quite explicit in what the goal is, at least in propaganda towards the internal audience[0]. If one does equate a Ukrainian to a "nazi" that must be exterminated, burns this into the minds for years, builds a chauvinistic version of history to frame it into then the rest comes out naturally — don't even need an order. The behaviour of the Russian army towards the non-combatants so far has been aligne…

That's unadulterated bullshit and I think both of us know it. "mass rape, mass murder etc". Look, I don't think the Russians are innocent in this at all. Obviously they have economic incentive and don't mind killing some folks to get what they are after. They don't want to kill everyone though or they would act very differently. It's not genocide. Very simple. Even by a stretch of the word to include removing Nazi el…

Unfortunately it's not bullshit. I wish it was - read the summary of the OSCE report: https://osce.usmission.gov/response-to-moscow-mechanism-repo...

It's even worse.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#306

Post by idiotsecant »

mythrwy wrote: post #291
excieve wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're actually quite explicit in what the goal is, at least in propaganda towards the internal audience[0]. If one does equate a Ukrainian to a "nazi" that must be exterminated, burns this into the minds for years, builds a chauvinistic version of history to frame it into then the rest comes out naturally — don't even need an order. The behaviour of the Russian army towards the non-combatants so far has been aligne…

That's unadulterated bullshit and I think both of us know it. "mass rape, mass murder etc". Look, I don't think the Russians are innocent in this at all. Obviously they have economic incentive and don't mind killing some folks to get what they are after. They don't want to kill everyone though or they would act very differently. It's not genocide. Very simple. Even by a stretch of the word to include removing Nazi el…

> "mass rape, mass murder etc".

> That's unadulterated bullshit and I think both of us know it.

I think there's some pretty well documented cases of both of those things within the past few months alone. I'm not sure it's bullshit at all.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#307

Post by slaw »

nisa wrote: post #292
slaw wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you pay 700€/year for electricity and twenty times more for rent. I think energy is still inexpensive compared to rent prices.

700€/year for heating in a rather modern flat (modernized 15 years ago) add to that 1200€/year for electricity - rent is without heating around 5000€/year here but not a lot of families can stomach a tripling of heating costs and likely growing electricity costs. Consider the price of gas stays at 15ct/kWh that an additional 1500€/year - for most people in Germany a full month of earnings. And my situation is rather…

Rent 400Euro/month is very inexpensive. For me electricity including heating is 1/20 price of rent.

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#308

Post by BenoitP »

ceejayoz wrote: post #244
SnowHill9902 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really true. Liquid fuels are much dirtier and reduce the lifespan or time between maintenances a lot. It’s used only as an emergency.

Is this not an emergency?

It is an emergency lasting at least 8-10 months starting now so as to not deplete the reserves. I don't think the turbines can last that long without regular heavy maintenance.

Also, I highly doubt some of these can run on crude oil. Before this claim the only type of device capable of such fuel ranges I knew of is the main battle tank. It makes more sense to me that a tank is designed for versatility, and a gas turbine for efficiency on a single precise fuel. What's exactly the catch here?

I'd like a source on these claims

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#309

Post by 1234letshaveatw »

theplumber wrote: post #218
1234letshaveatw wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my god- the EU redistributed tax revenue from member countries to fund 100% of home improvements in Italy? I can't even imagine.

What's so wrong helping a neighbour? That reduces the energy costs for everyone around the world not only Italy.

I'd feel the same way if my neighbor texted me and informed me that he was making a withdrawal from my bank account to go to a nice dinner, when I was staying in for the night to save money. Being subject to taxation by foreign bureaucrats who then decide where to bestow lavish gifts sounds like nightmare fuel

Re: Looming natural gas shortages has the EU scrambling for solutions

#310

Post by btilly »

mythrwy wrote: post #299
btilly wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genocide has a specific definition, and Russian actions meet that definition. This is genocide, and it is immoral for you to avoid accepting that. The accepted definition is in Article 2 of https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-... Russian propaganda amply demonstrates their intent. The physical part is also well-established. For example Russian filtration camps have been use to "process" then r…

This isn't genocide, even by your very strained definition. It maybe becomes something like that though if this keeps up. Maybe we in the west should stop being stupid. Just a thought.

My "very strained definition" is from the UN treaty on genocide. This has been the authoritative definition of genocide in international law for over 70 years. That you do not accept the definition says more about you than the definition.

The first condition is intent, specifically intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Russia has provided ample evidence. For example https://uacrisis.org/en/justification-of-genocide-russia-has... is a translation into English of an article from Russian media laying out what "denazification" actually would entail. The following passage is typical and demonstrates intent:

Denazification will inevitably also be a de-Ukrainization – a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic component of self-identification of the population of the territories of historical Little Russia (Malorossiya) and New Russia (Novorossiya), begun by the Soviet authorities.

There are many similar statements from all corners of Russian controlled media. Intent is abundantly clear.

As for the second component, we need to establish a physical element. Many Russian war crimes qualify. But I specifically pointed to https://www.state.gov/russias-filtration-operations-forced-d... because the forced relocation of children for the purpose of erasing their ethnic identity is directly listed in the treaty.

Do you still refuse to acknowledge that Russia has met the definition of genocide established in international law by treaty? If so, then on what grounds do you argue that this ISN'T genocide?

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