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Tax the Land

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301–310 of 613 posts

Re: Tax the Land

#301

Isn’t that what property taxes are at the local level?

The major, important difference is that LVT only taxes the site-value of a property, not the value of the buildings etc on it. More or less you'd be charged property taxes as if your lot was a blank empty lot. So for instance if you buy some land and redevelop it into an apartment building or a stadium etc your LVT would hardly change (it might a bit because your building might increase the value of properties nearby…

This sounds extremely regressive. Basically rich developers will all be getting a huge property tax break by not having to pay taxes on the value of the land/building improvements, while small businesses and homeowners who can not afford to improve their property (or extract profit from it) will not be able to keep up with rising land taxes and be forced to sell. What a stupid idea.

Re: Tax the Land

#302

Local governments, which have been granted near unchecked authority by state governments, are entirely captured by homeowners. I'm not fully clear on this statement. Is it putting forth that local governments shouldn't be controlled by the people who are local, or is it saying that homeowners hold more power than renters? If the former, that's just silly. If the latter, renters get the same one vote per person as eve…

This attitude here is precisely why local zoning is ineffective. The people who are negatively impacted by anti-development policies are the ones that don't get the privilege of living in economically powerful population centers in the first place. Sure, the home-owners might grumble about an apartment blocking their view, more crowded restaurants, or "neighborhood character as a city grows. The people who are negati…

> … and the people who can't even afford to move there in the first place.

There’s no inalienable right to live in a popular place you cannot afford.

Can you articulate an ethical argument for why it’s a problem that not everyone can afford to move to the most desirable cities?

Re: Tax the Land

#303
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"because" was the wrong word as {place} isn't good just because there aren't too many people. ("not too many" is necessary, not sufficient.) However, "{place} won't be a good place to live if there are too many people there" is intuitively obvious. Consider Yosemite Valley. Do you really think that it would still be a good place if 1M people lived there? Okay - how about 100k? (There are easily 100k people who would…

Consider London.

Note that "{place} is not good because of too many people" happens at different numbers for different people.

Some people think that YV already has too many people while others would be happy with 1M people.

That said, it's not true that every place can remain good with an arbitrarily large number of people.

More to the point, it's not true that every {good} place can remain good with as many people who would like to live there.

Re: Tax the Land

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it makes sense that people who don’t live within a community should not be permitted to vote in that community’s elections. Consider the question for states or countries. Would it make sense for Massachusetts residents to vote in Connecticut‘s elections? Or Canadian residents to vote in the US’s elections?

Ask it differently. Ask it about time. "Does it make sense that the people voting today can decide to stop other people from voting here in the future?" That's what zoning, housing policy and other local government decisions are capable of doing.

Of course it makes sense. They’re the people who have the biggest stake in the place that they live, and in the community that they built.

Re: Tax the Land

#305
post #278
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Getting that 0.75 acres to turn over is exactly the point. Incentivizing them to leave (or better yet: subdivide and sell the land) is good for society." I doubt the affected person feels it's good. Quite frankly, the land value tax ideas seem absurd to me. It's just another redistribution scheme - work hard, retire, get forced off your land via tax. It seems it's the government's and everyone else's desire to just…

>It's just another redistribution scheme More starkly, it seems to me that it's a redistribution scheme that exists primarily to enrich those who already have abundant capital. Who's going to be building and owning those high density structures afterwards? Not the people who are getting displaced from their homes, I suspect. In short, it feels as though we're being told that it is right and just that you should be dr…

People who own single family homes at the kinds of locations where developers are eager to build apartment buildings are among the wealthiest and most powerful ever to have lived. They are pretty successfully standing athwart capitalism’s most powerful firms, going toe to toe with people who have hundreds of billions of dollars on the line (in terms of Silicon Valley’s capacity grow and add headcount, not just the real estate firms who would participate in that) and conceding a battle here or there but largely winning the war. At the same time their wealth increases tax free year over much more than a FAANG senior engineer or middle manager makes pre tax. These are not sympathetic underdogs.

Re: Tax the Land

#306

Vox needs a spanking. (As always). Just imagine. I have some land. Lots of people would love to buy it it for different things. But for now, I just want to hang onto it until I'm ready to use it. And my house is sitting right next to it. Yeah, nimby blah, blah blah. But it's my house and my backyard and my land so... I have to be forced to sell it? Brah. Just another socialist redistribution scheme.

No one is forcing you to sell it. There will be a tax on the land based on the value of the land. If the value of your land goes up, and you haven't developed it, then you haven't done ANYTHING to actually increase the value of that land. Thus the equitable way to distribute any wealth gained is to give it back to society, since the "public" helped give your land value.

This is the most disingenuous argument I have ever heard.

Re: Tax the Land

#307
> A land tax can’t disincentivize anything — land will continue to exist regardless of any taxation scheme.

It could and would disincetivize keeping lands in their natural state, since one is compelled to build in order to have the land not be a financial burden. Unless there is some kind of exclusion for that, it could result in sprawl.

Re: Tax the Land

#308
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a place where there should be more homes if you were looking at it from a regional perspective aka, somebody else deciding that there should be more homes. I think that's the wrong perspective to take. I don't want an authority to decide this - the locals should make their own choices (right or wrong).

Wrong choices are still wrong. I'd like to move into a house with my wife, but at this rate we'll be saving for a decade to get there. With climate change we have no idea how the real estate market will be at 1.5 degrees warming.

> … at this rate we'll be saving for a decade to get there.

I saved for a decade to buy my home in an area I enjoy, at a level of density I enjoy.

You can do the same, or you can choose to live somewhere cheaper that you can afford.

It’s your choice to live somewhere expensive, and to not want to save for a decade to get what you want.

Re: Tax the Land

#309
post #13

"The big question land value taxes help answer is: How can a government raise funds without distorting choices and possibly leaving people worse off? If you tax income, it provides a disincentive to work. If you tax property, it provides a disincentive to improve the physical buildings on top of the land." Of course it will distort choices and leave some people worse off. If the author can't see that, then they have…

Obviously we shouldn't just "turn on" a LVT for land that previously didn't have the tax until now. The idea would be that whenever the government is selling land to private individuals / corporations, instead of setting a property tax of a few % on the land, it sets a land value tax of about 70%. That means that less revenue is made from the immediate sale, but the land will bring in additional revenue over time. So most land would continue to use the original system, while a slowly increasing amount would be "LVT" tagged when it passes through the government's hands. To avoid the "being forced out" situation you describe, there would be a few options:

1. Live in a rural area that is very unlikely to be developed.

2. Make sure to buy a piece of land that is "original system" tagged instead of "LVT" tagged.

3. Buy "property tax increase" insurance. If your land's value goes up, the insurance pays the difference, and you don't notice the cost change.

If those 3 options don't turn out to be sufficient, then probably there's some hacky provision that could be tacked on, like LVT doesn't go up for individuals until they sell their land, or something along those lines. But of course that should only apply to people who are actually living in their own homes, not to landlords.

Anyway, the question is, why go to all this trouble? Why have an LVT at all? The answer is the following: No one created the land. When you're renting from a landlord, some of your rent is for the building, and all the effort the landlord puts into maintaining it. It makes sense that the landlord should be paid for that. Under the current system, though, some of your rent is for the land. That makes a lot less sense. Why pay the landlord for the land, even though the landlord didn't create the land?

Imagine some travellers find an oasis in the desert surrounding a fresh water spring. They (for some reason) decide to settle there, and need to decide how to split up the daily 10 000 gallons of water that the spring produces. I think that probably the travellers would decide to split the water evenly: 100 travellers means that each gets 100 gallons per day. It would be weird if they decided that some of them should be considered "waterlords" and get 2000 gallons per day, and the rest should get 0, and would have to pay the waterlords for their daily water.

Splitting the water evenly wouldn't be communism or anything. If Alice uses her share of the water to grow food, she wouldn't be obliged to share that food with anyone else, since she's the one who laboured to produce it. Everyone still gets to keep or sell whatever they produce, but the spring gushes whether anyone works or not, so the water gets split evenly.

Objection: Maybe some settlers will specialize in farming, and some won't. Obviously the farmers will need to use more water, so shouldn't they get a higher fraction of the water?

Answer: Yes, the farmers will use more water, but they can get it by trading the food they produce with their neighbours in exchange for water to put on their crops. The farmers would essentially be selling their ability to convert water into crops.

Objection: Wouldn't it be an equally good system if instead of trading in water people could trade shares in fractions of the water produced? So 10 000 shares are split equally among all the initial settlers, and each share is worth 1 gallon per day.

Answer: This has a few issues. The main one is that as new people are born and grow up, they would get an equal fraction of the water to everyone else in the "divide up the daily water production" scheme, but they would get nothing in the "divide up the shares" scheme, since all the shares would have been distributed already.

Re: Tax the Land

#310
post #161
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income taxes in California + US Federal are high enough that I don't really think it's worth it to try to get my income above, say, $500k a year. So, for me, income taxes absolutely disincentivize work. I actually had a second job for a while and quit it because of this.

Really? Who doesn't want more money? Also, you're not necessarily working that much harder to make a million instead of 500k. Thousands of people who read headline news are making 500k a year in the software industry. The year I made a million dollars, a lot of it in stock from a fang company, I wasn't working twice as hard as the years I made 500k.

I hear you, but when half of that gets taxed away, it makes a difference. In my case, I've found I get a much better WLB at $500k.
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