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The Uselessness of Phenylephrine

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Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine

#301

Post by samtho »

skyechurch wrote: post #268
freedomben wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

acetaminophen is often put in medications because it's toxic. It's there to dissuade people from *gasp* taking too much and possibly experiencing some positive feelings or enjoyment that offends the sensibilities of decision makers. Better that we destroy a few people's livers than that those people get a buzz. (to be clear, this last sentence is not my view. I'm mocking that view)

This also is silly, illegal drug users constantly take their dosages mixed with much worse things than Tylenol with no noticeable dissuasion effect that I am aware of. Acetaminophen is mixed with oxycodone etc bc it increases the pain relieving effect of the opiate drug (which for many people (e.g. me), are of limited effectiveness relative to the side effects/"buzz"), and because, unlike NSAIDs, it doesn't thin your…

I don’t think anyone reasonable is actively arguing to delist Tylenol as OTC, rather we shouldn’t be so restrictive on these medications that can actually really help people. In addition we should be giving people resources for discontinuing use when they no longer need it.

Also, we need to really research the NSAIDS after surgery thing, afaik, there has been nothing super rigorous on it and is only going off of the common knowledge that they do thin blood. I do not like Tylenol and my partner is allergic, we’ve both broken the rule about nsaids post surgery.

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine

#302

Post by VerminOctopus1 »

twofornone wrote: post #239
jl6 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel proponents of evidence based medicine are perfectly aware of the enormity of the problem, and are working hard to improve the situation.

But the point is that laymen are not, and they put too much faith, on average, into our medical institutions. Our understanding of the human body has advanced enormously with the advent of modern science, but it is still far less complete than most people probably realize when they interact with doctors. Not to mention systemic issues (common to any technical discipline) where medical professionals have to effectivel…

Who exactly should the laymen put their faith into if not medical institutions? That, and the scientific process, are all we’ve got.

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine

#303

Post by CamperBob2 »

edmundsauto wrote: post #236
paulmd wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> doesn't get you high. this is the big one. Phenyl-epinephrine doesn't work at all, it's consistently failed to outperform placebo, and the only reason it's on the market is because the FDA doesn't like pseudo-ephedrine (sudafed) because it can be used as a precursor for meth. Same reason they've required individual blister packs for sudafed (if only there was some illicit drug which gave you the focus and drive to…

What makes you say the FDA is actively adding poison to other drugs, are there first hand sources from them? This sounds like it could also be a case where they want to lower opiate consumption, and so adding some Tylenol increases pain relief without increasing opiate intake. I am not sure that’s wise policy, but if you don’t think Tylenol is all that bad (again, I’m not sufficiently informed to say this, but the FD…

What makes you say the FDA is actively adding poison to other drugs, are there first hand sources from them?

"Not everyone thought it was a good idea to make alcohol deadly, when making it illegal hadn’t stopped drinkers, and New Jersey Senator Edward I. Edwards called it “legalized murder.” However, the Anti-Saloon League persisted, arguing that legal alcohol had killed many more in its day than denatured alcohol would kill during the transition to a teetotaling world. “The Government is under no obligation to furnish the people with alcohol that is drinkable when the Constitution prohibits it,” said advocate Wayne B. Wheeler. “The person who drinks this industrial alcohol is a deliberate suicide… To root out a bad habit costs many lives and long years of effort…”"

https://time.com/3665643/deadly-drinking/

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine

#304

Post by ray__ »

munificent wrote: post #196
nostromo wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American law is so disjointed. On one hand, we're decriminalizing drugs. Pot is widely legal now. Other states are allowing mushrooms and LSD. Cocaine and heroin are not legal, but have all but been decriminalized on the West Coast. Meanwhile it's harder than ever to get pain killers from your doctor, even when you have a demonstrated need for them. Same with ephedrine -- a very useful drug -- it's very difficult to…

It's not inconsistent to treat different things differently and different drugs are radically different in their individual health and societal effects. I live in Seattle where marijuana is legal. Alcohol and marijuana are widely consumed and I rarely see any large-scale problems from it. Obviously, there are many people who can't handle either of those, but their failure to handle it well seems to not impinge on oth…

The fallout from the over-criminalization of opioids, meth, etc is a big reason that you're observing these behaviors. Stigmatizing drug use perpetuates the punitive approach to this problem. If the law treated addiction and the abuse of hard drugs with compassion rather than the draconian approach that we have in place currently you'd be seeing a lot less of this stuff.

This post could have easily been written about alcohol in the prohibition era. We've since learned that criminalizing alcohol makes its impact on society worse rather than better. We can't strip drug users of their autonomy and their ability to lead any sort of normal life and then act surprised when they turn to crime or turn back to drugs when they have nothing left.

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine

#305

Post by nick__m »

tssva wrote: post #272
skyechurch wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very silly, acetaminophen is very effective against pain, and for many people (e.g. me) is tolerated much better, especially at higher doses, than ibuprofen etc. There is already way to much panic about drugs/medicines, especially pain meds, especially especially for chronic conditions, without further hysterics about the 'threat' of useful and well tolerated chemicals. (Not a doctor, not offering medical adv…

I find acetaminophen almost completely useless for pain. Ibuprofen is better but still not very effective. Naproxen sodium is the only OTC pain medicine which is effective for me.

accordind to the American Dental Association, 500mg of acetaminophen in combination with 200mg of ibuprofen is more effective than naproxen for pain relief.

https://jada.ada.org/article/S0002-8177(18)30117-X/fulltext (the result are in table 1)

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine

#306

Post by rootusrootus »

edmundsauto wrote: post #236
paulmd wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> doesn't get you high. this is the big one. Phenyl-epinephrine doesn't work at all, it's consistently failed to outperform placebo, and the only reason it's on the market is because the FDA doesn't like pseudo-ephedrine (sudafed) because it can be used as a precursor for meth. Same reason they've required individual blister packs for sudafed (if only there was some illicit drug which gave you the focus and drive to…

What makes you say the FDA is actively adding poison to other drugs, are there first hand sources from them? This sounds like it could also be a case where they want to lower opiate consumption, and so adding some Tylenol increases pain relief without increasing opiate intake. I am not sure that’s wise policy, but if you don’t think Tylenol is all that bad (again, I’m not sufficiently informed to say this, but the FD…

I also wonder where the idea that the FDA 'denatures' hydrocodone with acetaminophen comes from. AFAICT, if you overdose on vicodin it's more likely the hydrocodone will kill you before the acetaminophen.

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine

#307

Post by rootusrootus »

samtho wrote: post #298
edmundsauto wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you say the FDA is actively adding poison to other drugs, are there first hand sources from them? This sounds like it could also be a case where they want to lower opiate consumption, and so adding some Tylenol increases pain relief without increasing opiate intake. I am not sure that’s wise policy, but if you don’t think Tylenol is all that bad (again, I’m not sufficiently informed to say this, but the FD…

Why can you go to the store and buy rubbing alcohol to drink? It’s primary ingredient is just ethanol. The FDA literally mandates that the ethanol is not able to be safely consumed and is cut with poison that is not easily separated from ethanol. Similarly, cutting opioids with Tylenol is not actually intended to be a deterrent to someone who gets their hands on the pills rather it deters people involved with illicit…

> Why can you go to the store and buy rubbing alcohol to drink? It’s primary ingredient is just ethanol.

AFAIK most/all rubbing alcohol (at least that which is sold in the US) is isopropanol, not ethanol. You can buy ethanol in not-for-consumption form, as denatured alcohol.

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine

#308

Post by JohnTHaller »

thehappypm wrote: post #294

I need a tl;dr: what medicine should I take if I’m congested??

pseudoephedrine. The ingredient in Sudafed, Nyquil, etc that actually works. You'll usually need to go to the pharmacy counter to get it and show ID. They track how much each person gets because some folks were using it to make meth a while back. The replacement in the OTC Sudafed, etc out one the shelves, phenylephrine, doesn't work.

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine

#309

Post by ipaddr »

VerminOctopus1 wrote: post #302
twofornone wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the point is that laymen are not, and they put too much faith, on average, into our medical institutions. Our understanding of the human body has advanced enormously with the advent of modern science, but it is still far less complete than most people probably realize when they interact with doctors. Not to mention systemic issues (common to any technical discipline) where medical professionals have to effectivel…

Who exactly should the laymen put their faith into if not medical institutions? That, and the scientific process, are all we’ve got.

Medical practice and research can be decades away from each Other. Use your own judgement. Smoking was a weight cure before it wasn't.

Re: The Uselessness of Phenylephrine

#310

Post by eurasiantiger »

greedo wrote: post #295
ajross wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my experience, many people have a quasi-religious belief in the capability of modern medicine to perform what would otherwise be called a miracle. This belief is typically held without any evidence whatsoever. Modern medical results would absolutely be viewed as a miracle to someone just a few decades back. Something like 90% of cancer cases are either cured or successfully suppressed (to the extent that the suf…

90% of cancer cases are cured or suppressed? I have to call BS. Cancer is the number two cause of death in the US.

That just goes to show how unfair the medical system there is. Not everyone can afford treatment, and those who cannot are already otherwise more at risk due to the affordability of processed foods imposing unhealthy ”lifestyle choices” as well as downright hazardous living and working conditions.
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