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CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#301

Post by lesuorac »

harryf wrote: post #130
pstuart wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The show "24" was an advertisement for torture. I got sucked in at first because it was a bit of a twist and exciting, but soon stopped out of disgust when I realized what was going on.

Exactly. And it came out Nov 6th 2001... not even a month after 9/11. Probably did a lot to shape an angry publics willingness to use torture as a tool in retribution. The writers of 24 (and later Homeland) talk about it here https://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/magazine/the-creators-of-...

Do you really think they finished all of the casting calls, set design, filming, and editing from Sept 12 2001 to Nov 6th 2001?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_(TV_series)#Conception

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#302

Post by cryptonector »

naoqj wrote: post #150
mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

>Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. How does having "the moral high ground" help the lower class of a society?

If morality doesn't matter in the least, then we might as well all live in Nazi / Soviet / Whatever tyranny. Who cares if the government kills your neighbors ("they must have done something"), or even you yourself ("I must have done something!"), amirite? Nothing matters, if morality doesn't matter. Live free, die a slave -- whatever, it's all the same? Die of natural causes or be tortured to death -- whatever, it's all the same?

Or, morality matters, we demand and mostly get the rule of law, and then we all benefit from not getting disappeared, tortured, killed.

It's very simple. Everyone needs the State to act morally. The "lower classes" need it even more than the "higher" classes! The poorer you are, the less protection you'll have from an immoral State.

Only in Marxist/Leninist fantasies do "the lower classes" benefit from not having a moral State: because the State will crush the "higher classes" for the benefit of the lower, yeah!!1! That's what always happens!! Not. That's very much not what happened in the USSR.

No, when the State foregoes morality, everyone suffers.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#303

Post by cryptonector »

deutschew wrote: post #98
mrtksn wrote: post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

> Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. There never was any moral high ground, the establishment were successful at making people FEEL as such. We are quick to point fingers at Nazis, Terrorists, Enemies yet the Western perspective is always 'we can do know wrong, if we did, its justified' which is exactly what the opposing side does. Once a subtle reminder that many supported Nazi ideals early in…

I took u/martksn's comment to be that the State needs to behave morally as much as it can. The State is composed of and run by people -- people who are imperfect, of course, who make mistakes, are corrupted, or even outright evil.

We can only try to make the State consist of institutions that keep it mostly moral. Doing so, and mostly succeeding, gives us the moral high ground even when there are some failures.

But when those institutions fail to keep the State mostly moral, watch out, because then we're in trouble.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#304

Post by ericmay »

freeflight wrote: post #297
ericmay wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not especially thrilled with the idea that this can grant you a license to murder me in my sleep with impunity simply because Im not a US citizen. Doesn't seem to stop other countries from doing this internationally and to their own citizens anyway. Something like the ICC in how you're envisioning things can only work when it's backed by military force. So long story short, it is mainly just the U.S. enforcing…

> Doesn't seem to stop other countries from doing this internationally and to their own citizens anyway. What other countries are constantly drone assassinating people in other countries territories? The closest to that I can think of might be Turkey and Saudi Arabia with their drone operations in Syria and Yemen, but those campaigns accompany full blown open military campaigns, quite a bit different to US signature…

> What other countries are constantly drone assassinating people in other countries territories?

So you can only be murdered in your sleep by a drone? Nothing else counts?

But yea sure whatever. Here's 5 seconds of Google search [1].

> but those campaigns accompany full blown open military campaigns, quite a bit different to US signature strike operations.

I think that's a bizarre distinction to draw. Why would a military operation justify anything? U.S. drone strikes previously did accompany full-blown military campaign anyway.

[1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2021/09/16/france-...

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#305

Post by PoignardAzur »

itsoktocry wrote: post #273
mywacaday wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to see how the US can claim a moral high ground on anything when it continues to not be a member of the ICC and is even occasionally actively hostile towards individual judges and member countries by threatening sanctions.

> Hard to see how the US can claim a moral high ground on anything People now counter any claim like this with "that's whataboutism!". It's free reign to be be hypocritical I guess.

No. I'm no fan at all of the US regime and the atrocities it committed, but these atrocities aren't a free pass for other countries to commit war crimes and remain criticism-free.

The fact that Blackwater exists doesn't make Wagner any less evil. Whataboutism is using one to shut down conversations about the other.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#306

Post by leereeves »

throwawaycities wrote: post #300
leereeves wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> look at the other UN member countries not signatories to the Rome Statute subject to the ICC: China, Iraq, Israel, Libya, Qatar, and Yemen That's far from a complete list. There are 193 UN members[1]; only 123 have made themselves subject to the ICC[2]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_United_Na... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_parties_to_the_Rome_Sta...

I never said it was a complete list. On the other hand you are not distinguishing countries that have signed but not yet ratified the treaty, leaving only 41 members. Of those 41 members feel free to highlight those countries which are shining examples of rule of law and human rights.

> On the other hand you are not distinguishing countries that have signed but not yet ratified the treaty, leaving only 41 members.

The US has also signed but not yet ratified the treaty. We're not one of the 41 who haven't signed.

> Of those 41 members feel free to highlight those countries which are shining examples of rule of law and human rights.

I couldn't name any countries I would consider "shining examples of rule of law and human rights", ICC member or not. Even the ICC itself has been accused of racism and neo-colonialism because nearly all its prosecutions have targeted Africa.

I did notice that Ukraine, like us, signed but didn't ratify the treaty, which I thought was interesting at this time.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#307

Post by freeflight »

ericmay wrote: post #304
freeflight wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesn't seem to stop other countries from doing this internationally and to their own citizens anyway. What other countries are constantly drone assassinating people in other countries territories? The closest to that I can think of might be Turkey and Saudi Arabia with their drone operations in Syria and Yemen, but those campaigns accompany full blown open military campaigns, quite a bit different to US signature…

> What other countries are constantly drone assassinating people in other countries territories? So you can only be murdered in your sleep by a drone? Nothing else counts? But yea sure whatever. Here's 5 seconds of Google search [1]. > but those campaigns accompany full blown open military campaigns, quite a bit different to US signature strike operations. I think that's a bizarre distinction to draw. Why would a mil…

> But yea sure whatever. Here's 5 seconds of Google search [1].

That's neither a French citizen nor is it anything beyond an anecdote. If you can show me France's equivalent to Pakistan [0], then we might be getting somewhere.

> I think that's a bizarre distinction to draw. Why would a military operation justify anything?

It's not bizarre at all; Weapons of war being used in a conflict of war is something very different than dropping weapons of war on a civilian population you are not officially at war with.

[0] https://drones.pitchinteractive.com/

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#308

Post by keybored »

mrtksn wrote: post #291
keybored wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot express how bewildering this comment is. The article in question is about using torture as a training tool -- inflicting brain damage on a person so that folks will learn the valuable skill of beating up defenseless people. Then this comment comes along and complains about the optics of it. Why? Because it undermines "Western civilization". And what's the problem with that? Because then Western civilization…

No it's not about optics and I don't see any value in discussing if torture is right or wrong as it is an age old question. Since I'm not happy about it, I'm obviously on the "torture is wrong" camp and I have no intention of listening about the virtues of torture. Also, an expression of sympathies about the victim will only bloat the text and weaken the point I find important. What's the point of everyone repeating…

> Also, an expression of sympathies about the victim will only bloat the text and weaken the point I find important.

The point being about optics. Not about the suffering caused by torture.

> What's the point of everyone repeating how horrible torture is? I think that must be given.

It hasn't been obvious ever since the start of the War on Terror. At least not according to the Bush regime and people like Sam Harris or shows like 24. But me making that point might undermine the moral high ground of W. Civ.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#309

Post by egisspegis »

gambler wrote: post #266

I am sure after learning this all Americans will take to the streets and after a massive protest the government will defund CIA and prosecute everyone responsible for the related crimes. Right? And if that doesn't happen, European companies will cancel American accounts, IKEA will close shop here, GOG will refuse to sell games in US, etc, etc. Right? Because, as I've learned on HN in the last two weeks, all citizens…

I'm sure they will when US starts carpet bombing Canada's cities.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#310

Post by mrtksn »

keybored wrote: post #308
mrtksn wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not about optics and I don't see any value in discussing if torture is right or wrong as it is an age old question. Since I'm not happy about it, I'm obviously on the "torture is wrong" camp and I have no intention of listening about the virtues of torture. Also, an expression of sympathies about the victim will only bloat the text and weaken the point I find important. What's the point of everyone repeating…

> Also, an expression of sympathies about the victim will only bloat the text and weaken the point I find important. The point being about optics. Not about the suffering caused by torture. > What's the point of everyone repeating how horrible torture is? I think that must be given. It hasn't been obvious ever since the start of the War on Terror. At least not according to the Bush regime and people like Sam Harris o…

Not at all, the point being the things done undermining the whole society. I don't care how things look and did not imply that.

PS: I have no involvement on the War on Terror, I don't agree that torture can be good under any conditions.

Can you please stop mischaracterising my post and explaining me what I said? Thank you.

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