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Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

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Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#301

Post by pja »

namdnay wrote: post #281
dotancohen wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like a quality automobile, to bring the discussion closer to the article. For example, a Tesla Model 3 might cost more than a Hyundai I10, but after three years of ownership you've not had to change the oil, fill it with gas, get the tailpipe emissions inspected, possibly see the catalytic converter stolen, etc. And the difference in maintenance only grows from there, when the plugs and timing belt and seals and…

How many miles are you putting on that i10?! An oil change is every 2 years or 15k km. I think it’s a bad example btw, it’s a famously reliable car (the taxi of choice in Bogota fwiw)

For some reason people in the US are obsessed with changing the oil in their vehicle.

Modern engines & oils don't need the oil changing every 3000 miles, but the folklore belief in the necessity of doing so rolls on unstoppably in the USA.

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#302

Post by dotancohen »

JoachimSchipper wrote: post #275
dotancohen wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like a quality automobile, to bring the discussion closer to the article. For example, a Tesla Model 3 might cost more than a Hyundai I10, but after three years of ownership you've not had to change the oil, fill it with gas, get the tailpipe emissions inspected, possibly see the catalytic converter stolen, etc. And the difference in maintenance only grows from there, when the plugs and timing belt and seals and…

Ehm, doesn’t Tesla have famously bad quality control in several areas, e.g. fit of body panels? EVs, as a category, need less maintenance - but Tesla’s are not an example of a trouble-free product! (They are legitimately cool though!)

Sure, the early Model 3's had body panel fit problems. I actually bought one last week, and the fit is amazing, both interior and exterior. I don't know why that point keeps coming up. For what it's worth, I used to be a tech at a Ford dealer, so I know what bad fitment looks like!

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#303

Post by astrange »

elil17 wrote: post #185
astrange wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"erosion of real wages" isn't actually calculable since the price of your house doesn't really have anything to do with how many electronics you can own, but it's most likely not true - houses are much bigger and higher quality than 1970, cars are incredibly safer, you can buy infinitely more computing power, most importantly you don't have lead poisoning now.

Economists (imperfectly) take this into account when calculating inflation. In cars, for example, economists estimate the price of individual features (e.g. a power steering wheel, ABS, a cup holder) so that they can accurately account for increases in quality.

Those calculations are the ones that make it look like American factory workers were automated out of their jobs, because a 2010 computer is a zillion times faster than a 1970 computer, therefore each factory worker is now producing a zillion times as many computers.

Basically, it works better a year at a time.

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#304

Post by dotancohen »

namdnay wrote: post #281
dotancohen wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like a quality automobile, to bring the discussion closer to the article. For example, a Tesla Model 3 might cost more than a Hyundai I10, but after three years of ownership you've not had to change the oil, fill it with gas, get the tailpipe emissions inspected, possibly see the catalytic converter stolen, etc. And the difference in maintenance only grows from there, when the plugs and timing belt and seals and…

How many miles are you putting on that i10?! An oil change is every 2 years or 15k km. I think it’s a bad example btw, it’s a famously reliable car (the taxi of choice in Bogota fwiw)

Thanks, I updated the post. I had no idea that oil changes are now once every two years. On the wife's Subaru I still change the oil every six months, and I remember when the standard was actually every three months. She puts about 10 km on the car during those six months, we live in a hilltop village half an hour drive from a city.

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#305

Post by Amezarak »

dotancohen wrote: post #265
roland35 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe more expensive up front but probably cheaper in the long run!

Just like a quality automobile, to bring the discussion closer to the article. For example, a Tesla Model 3 might cost more than a Hyundai I10, but after three years of ownership you've not had to change the oil, fill it with gas, get the tailpipe emissions inspected, possibly see the catalytic converter stolen, etc. And the difference in maintenance only grows from there, when the plugs and timing belt and seals and…

I drive another manufacturer's equivalent of the Hyundai you mention, their lowest end car that they actually quit manufacturing, and I am sure the Hyundai is in the same ballpark.

I change the oil about twice a year. Over the past eight years, that has cost me about $480.

I have changed the transmission fluid three times. That has cost me about $140.

I've changed the air filter a couple times...not very often. Let's be generous and call it $40.

Around 120k I replaced the spark plugs. They were weirdly expensive, costing about $100.

I have performed no other maintenance.

I have filled it with gas about once a week. It's a pretty small tank. I'd estimate about $6000-$8000.

Add all that up, pretend electricity is free, and I have still come out way, way, way ahead versus buying a Model 3. I've still spent less than half of what I would have on a Model 3.

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#306

Post by nonrandomstring »

This article is just so rich it could become a book. It reminds me of Applied Systemantics by Gall.

It's really a list of psychopathologies, misunderstandings, erroneous thinking and gotchas that lead to poor quality. Among them are economic fallacies, biases, abusive power relations, cultural malaise, and FOMO.

In the end I think what the author is saying boils down to Sturgeons Law, that 99% of everything is rubbish and that it's our fault. We get the quality we deserve, because we are lazy, entitled and much more stupid than we think we are. Such is the nature of mass culture and everything else is an outlier.

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#307

Post by bjoli »

dijit wrote: post #298
bjoli wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have two things in my possession that are wonders of engineering. One hair trimmer and one restaurant kitchen blender/kitchen multifunction machine. Both made in 1987 in East Germany. The blender I bought second hand, and it came with a box of original replacement parts and specifications so detailed that I believe I could probably replace the motor if it ever fails (almost 6hp! Take that, Vitamix!). It makes nut b…

is this not the very definition of survivorship bias though? I have things from the 80s that, obviously, have lasted a long time. But I have owned things from that era that have failed and been forgotten about. Incidentally I bought some boots this year that are expected to last (at a minimum) 10 years, and I suspect they would, but I can't know that until 10 years from now. Heirloom quality is probably still a thing…

Probably. I don't have ten of these machines, so it is hard to make a general statement.

I mostly meant it as a comment on what the parent said; I could pay four times the price for something and have it last 35 years (which is 15x longer than the blender I had before it) I gladly would.

The fact that I can repair most of it is also a thing I miss in the things I buy today.

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#308

Post by Cthulhu_ »

yrral wrote: post #16

I think it's that you don't notice things that work well. House foundations, light switches, filesystems, silicon manufacturing, water delivery, grocery store logistics, etc etc etc. These are all things that most people never notice because they just work. It doesn't even occur to people day-to-day that these things can fail.

There's counterexamples for each of those though; just thinking of Flint, Michigan, or the Great Toilet Paper Shortage of 2020. Also I had to replace a light switch in my shed the other day.

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#309

Post by hef19898 »

onion2k wrote: post #277
yrral wrote: post #16

I think it's that you don't notice things that work well. House foundations, light switches, filesystems, silicon manufacturing, water delivery, grocery store logistics, etc etc etc. These are all things that most people never notice because they just work. It doesn't even occur to people day-to-day that these things can fail.

These are all things that most people never notice because they just work. Taking the example of grocery store logistics, the number of times products are unavailable in my local store makes me thing that's a thing that doesn't "just work". It's something that breaks down regularly, and possibly has lots of people working hard to keep it from breaking even more often. The same is true for lots of things. Stuff like w…

That's no contradiction. Logistics and manufacturing works because people are spending their professional lives maintaining them. It's the outside that doesn't see these efforts, for them it "just works". Like electricity.

Re: Why is it hard to buy things that work well?

#310

Post by PinguTS »

dijit wrote: post #298
bjoli wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have two things in my possession that are wonders of engineering. One hair trimmer and one restaurant kitchen blender/kitchen multifunction machine. Both made in 1987 in East Germany. The blender I bought second hand, and it came with a box of original replacement parts and specifications so detailed that I believe I could probably replace the motor if it ever fails (almost 6hp! Take that, Vitamix!). It makes nut b…

is this not the very definition of survivorship bias though? I have things from the 80s that, obviously, have lasted a long time. But I have owned things from that era that have failed and been forgotten about. Incidentally I bought some boots this year that are expected to last (at a minimum) 10 years, and I suspect they would, but I can't know that until 10 years from now. Heirloom quality is probably still a thing…

The above author mentions that these machines are from Eastern Germany. As I am from Eastern Germany myself, I can tell you that we had regulations in place, that machines had to last and had to be repairable. Those regulations came into place, because we had heavily resource problems.

Funfact: Those type of regulations are heavily discussed even these times again, when I look at EU right to be repair, or the discussions specifically around John Deere and the right to be repair.

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