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Open-Sourcing our Firmware

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Re: Open-Sourcing our Firmware

#301

Post by hailvectron »

arnaudsm wrote: post #298
hailvectron wrote: post #295

Things I'm hoping to see in time for a Framework machine to become my next laptop: - AMD processor options - Keyboards with a trackpoint - decades of ThinkPaddery have conditioned me; I regularly use a Dell touchpad-equipped laptop & contemporary Mac laptop and still pine for a trackpoint. Very personal preference, I know, but hopefully the Framework Marketplace comes to provide this. - Proper 14" HiDPI screen - Long…

You're describing the Thinkpad T14S. It's a real shame it has soldered RAM, I hope Framework's success will show the industry there's an actual need for this.

I guess you're right, hadn't realized the AMD Thinkpads were now available with better than 1080p screens. Totally agree on the soldered RAM crap. Also would be great to buy from a more consumer-friendly company like Framework, especially if they are going to do things like support coreboot.

Re: Open-Sourcing our Firmware

#303

Post by spookthesunset »

baybal2 wrote: post #287
alar44 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I get where you're coming from, but a few dozen SMD caps and resistors ordered in that kind of bulk probably raises the cost by a penny. Of course you do technically have more points of failure I guess.

I had clients who were going to bargain for less than a penny

For ten million units, a penny is $100,000. You could give an engineer an entire quarter to come up with a software debounce for less than that.

That shit adds up. BOM costs are everything for consumer goods.

Re: Open-Sourcing our Firmware

#304

Post by belfalas »

ad8e wrote: post #165

I checked the keyboard debouncing logic [0] and it was fine. Some keyboards from other manufacturers, notably Lenovo Thinkpads, have absurd debouncing algorithms that scramble keys or add delays, so it's good to see Framework has a correct solution. [0]: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/EmbeddedController/blob...

This made me wonder if debouncing is also a thing with software keyboards? For years I have sworn that I type things correctly on the iPhone keyboard but it gets it wrong.

Re: Open-Sourcing our Firmware

#305

Post by perihelions »

ad8e wrote: post #207
ohazi wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed that I seem to miskey my unlock password immediately after resuming from sleep way more often than when I use that password at other times, or when using an external keyboard (Lenovo T480). I always suspected that something was wonky, but a weird debounce bug would totally explain it, especially as I tend to type that password very quickly.

The scrambling is easy to see once you know it's happening: press k and l simultaneously on your Thinkpad keyboard. It'll always come out "lk" unless you deliberately separate them. Testing was done [0], but it's not written in an easy-to-understand way. As a summary, Thinkpad keys are scrambled within 15-23 ms. Usually, humans ascribe scrambled letters to their own mistakes, but this time it's the keyboard's fault.…

>"The scrambling is easy to see once you know it's happening: press k and l simultaneously on your Thinkpad keyboard. It'll always come out "lk" unless you deliberately separate them."

Is there an easy way to fix this? This is a noticeable nuisance in Emacs, when chord strings get "debounced" out of order (i.e. things like C-xC-m -> C-mC-x are quite annoying). The debounce precision is slower than fast human typing. Even though keypress event order is correct and noticeably correct, it gets rounded to "simultaneous", and then reordered (backwards) according to the logic you've described.

Re: Open-Sourcing our Firmware

#306

Post by [deleted] »

google234123 wrote: post #244
ad8e wrote: post #165

I checked the keyboard debouncing logic [0] and it was fine. Some keyboards from other manufacturers, notably Lenovo Thinkpads, have absurd debouncing algorithms that scramble keys or add delays, so it's good to see Framework has a correct solution. [0]: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/EmbeddedController/blob...

The copyright header at the top says "chromium".

[deleted]

Re: Open-Sourcing our Firmware

#307

Post by ayushnix »

hailvectron wrote: post #295

Things I'm hoping to see in time for a Framework machine to become my next laptop: - AMD processor options - Keyboards with a trackpoint - decades of ThinkPaddery have conditioned me; I regularly use a Dell touchpad-equipped laptop & contemporary Mac laptop and still pine for a trackpoint. Very personal preference, I know, but hopefully the Framework Marketplace comes to provide this. - Proper 14" HiDPI screen - Long…

> - Proper 14" HiDPI screen

I can't stress this enough. The display on the Framework can't do integer scaling and so almost everyone who intends to use an external monitor with the Framework can't do that on Linux without extremely annoying issues such as significantly higher input latency, GUI apps behaving abnormally, and not being able to use an external monitor and the laptop screen simultaneously. I don't care if they release Coreboot for the Framework, it's useless with its screen.

Re: Open-Sourcing our Firmware

#308

Post by Shared404 »

pvillano wrote: post #271
grp000 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm waiting for something with beefier internals, or an AMD variant, or both. That being said, they'd have to redesign the power delivery system and thermals, so maybe it would no longer be as modular? Anyone with the knowledge care to weigh in?

there wouldn't be any new parts except the mainboard/cpu/heatsink. It's unlikely for someone to want to replace only one of those*. I don't see a loss for customizability or repairability * very few people can solder a cpu and I've never heard of a heatsink needing replacement

> I've never heard of a heatsink needing replacement

It definitely happens. Usually as a direct result of someone just not taking care of their machine at all, but it still happens.

Source: work at independent repair shop.

Re: Open-Sourcing our Firmware

#309

Post by loganlinn »

imiric wrote: post #147
ohazi wrote: post #124

I've been so happy to see what Framework has been doing lately, and really want to support them, but I already have a desktop as my primary computer and two Thinkpads that are already set up nicely, but that I rarely use. I moved from 15" laptops to 14" when Lenovo added the numpad on the larger variant, and 14" is about as small as I want to go. I kind of want to buy a framework though, just to support them? But I h…

From reports I've read the Framework laptop has poor build quality. This comment from here actually: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29807585 I'd like to support their cause, but like you, I have way too many machines that already work well enough, that I can't justify another purchase unless it would offer a substantial improvement over my current setup (old ThinkPads). Plus I really can't function without a Tr…

I came across similar anecdotes of build quality and turned my nose. I found myself wishing I could hold a Framework laptop twist it like I was ringing out a wet rag. Surely this is a good test of build quality, I thought to myself. But in a moment of clarity, I realized this and other pseudo signals of build quality that Youtube reviewers and other armchair experts were attempting to use to draw comparison (to a unibody macbook pro) were either irrelevant or pedantic. Why is a unibody the pinnacle of build quality? Shouldn't longevity be?

I checked my Apple elitism at the door and I put my name down for a Framework in September and got it in October. Happy ever since. It's a great little laptop and would highly recommend others.

Re: Open-Sourcing our Firmware

#310

Post by bserge »

spookthesunset wrote: post #303
baybal2 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had clients who were going to bargain for less than a penny

For ten million units, a penny is $100,000. You could give an engineer an entire quarter to come up with a software debounce for less than that. That shit adds up. BOM costs are everything for consumer goods.

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