Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops • Hacker News Board

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#301

Post by henrikschroder » Fri, Nov 05, 2021, 1:01 AM UTC

MichaelZuo wrote: post #248

henrikschroder wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason they're defending their shit is prestige at this point. The system was originally procured by city administrators who had way too little understanding and experience dealing with IT projects. The contract was awarded to one of the big consultant behemoths who specialize in winning government contracts and executing them shoddily. Parents hate it, because it is shit. Anyone in the industry with a brain…

Can the crown, or some superior authority, pension off ‘city administrators’ in Sweden as they please?

No, that's not how it works.

Sweden has separations of power like every other liberal democracy, but the cake isn't cut the same way as it is in the US. Government offices are much more independent and protected from political interference than in the US, for example.

Basically, elected city officials set the budget and general guidance, and can appoint some administrators, but most people on the administrative side rise up through the ranks based on their merits (or not) like in any other organization.

The current head who is ultimately responsible for how the thing is handled right now started her career as a teacher, became a principal, and then moved into the city's school administration. I'm sure she's great at those parts of her job, but she's obviously not competent enough when it comes to overseeing or procuring IT projects of this magnitude.

So it's not the case that someone incompetent was rewarded with a comfy position, it's that the city's organization as a whole isn't competent to handle projects of this type and size.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#302

Post by henrikschroder » Fri, Nov 05, 2021, 1:04 AM UTC

GhettoComputers wrote: post #252

henrikschroder wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason they're defending their shit is prestige at this point. The system was originally procured by city administrators who had way too little understanding and experience dealing with IT projects. The contract was awarded to one of the big consultant behemoths who specialize in winning government contracts and executing them shoddily. Parents hate it, because it is shit. Anyone in the industry with a brain…

How can there be defense against this? The US does this but the military contracts aren't executed shoddily, although it seems that many others are. Why would they make such a crappy program, don't they have any incentive to have a good reputation or to get more contracts? If it sucks and their history sucks, why would anyone want to hire them?

Public procurement requiring tax-funded projects to go to the lowest bidder is how this system is defended.

There's a whole industry of companies who cater to these kinds of projects, and they don't give a shit about their reputation, because they're busy making sweet, sweet, money.

And if you think US military contractors aren't wasteful and shoddy, I have a bridge to sell you!

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#303

Post by Aeolun » Fri, Nov 05, 2021, 1:05 AM UTC

antihero wrote: post #102

wonderwonder wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think this digital child managing system sounds moderately dystopian to be honest" I disagree, I have 2 kids in elementary school and it is very useful to be able to look up what the kids have scheduled for the day to determine what to dress them in, see what's for lunch and if I need to pack them something if they won't like the available option. Most importantly though its very helpful to look up what homework /…

> it is very useful to be able to look up what the kids have scheduled for the day to determine what to dress them in I swear we just had an A4 piece of paper with my lessons on it on the fridge.

Wut? Does the school do anything that involves stuff that you need to dress differently for?

Even when doing PE I’d always bring a separate bag of gym clothes.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#304

Post by MichaelZuo » Fri, Nov 05, 2021, 1:15 AM UTC

ftrobro wrote: post #260

MichaelZuo wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your example assumes that crime (including up to ransom and kidnapping!) in poor neighbourhoods goes unpunished. If that’s the case there are more fundamental things to worry about than salary data…

Most crime goes unpunished, no matter the neighborhood. In 2020, only 14% of investigated crimes against persons in Sweden reached a solution. But that doesn't mean we should ignore all other problems.

What was the rate in 2020 for very serious crimes like ransom and kidnapping in Sweden? If it’s still low then I would say spending every extra resource available on rectifying that may prove more beneficial than resolving privacy concerns.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#305

Post by ajhurliman » Fri, Nov 05, 2021, 1:19 AM UTC

beyondzero wrote: post #256

raxxorrax wrote: post #8

> In some cases, people’s personal information could be accessed from Google searches. SEO providers should take a note here. > It warned parents to stop using the app and alleged that it might be illegally accessing people’s personal information If your API allows data extraction, it probably isn't a fault of any client. Perhaps they meant that creators could steal credentials. A problem with any software. I think t…

> I think this digital child managing system sounds moderately dystopian to be honest. A lot of the reactions and rebuttals to this comment are from HN childless people, whose perspective is their memory of being a child age 12-17, talking past HN people with children, whose perspective is about their kids age 5-12. At one end of the range you are educating about drugs and sex and good decisions, on the other end of…

Thank you for making this comment, it very much rings true as a parent whose child is far to young to ever be thinking about planning her own day.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#306

Post by makeitdouble » Fri, Nov 05, 2021, 1:20 AM UTC

rndgermandude wrote: post #164

pwdisswordfish8 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone who's been burned by these: Why aren't you equally as mad at the personnel at your child's school? It's one thing for a national or semi-national rollout of broken enterprise junk, it's another thing for your child's instructor to go along and demand that you use this broken system instead of providing reasonable affordances (e.g. low-tech, paper-based notices/forms that get sent home with your kid). For t…

>it's another thing for your child's instructor to go along and demand that you use this broken system instead of providing reasonable affordances I am not sure, but it might be that the teachers are not only encouraged but required to use these systems? >you don't own an iOS or Android device, or you have no smartphone at all? Is there an actual legal requirement for you to contribute on an ongoing basis to the bott…

> Or fast enough internet (with enough mobile data) to support zoom meetings and such each day.

Even is wealthier neighborhoods, with what we thought as pretty decent cabled internet, having everyone log in full-time and YouTube/video conferencing like crazy killed the connection speeds to a rate we haven't seen since the 90s.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#307

Post by MichaelZuo » Fri, Nov 05, 2021, 1:20 AM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #301

MichaelZuo wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can the crown, or some superior authority, pension off ‘city administrators’ in Sweden as they please?

No, that's not how it works. Sweden has separations of power like every other liberal democracy, but the cake isn't cut the same way as it is in the US. Government offices are much more independent and protected from political interference than in the US, for example. Basically, elected city officials set the budget and general guidance, and can appoint some administrators, but most people on the administrative side…

Thanks for the explanation but I believe there’s been a misunderstanding.

By pension off I meant is there a possibility for someone mediocre, or promoted beyond their level of competence, to be immediately dismissed with a generous pension. And to replace them with someone else selected for fixing the problem?

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#308

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Nov 05, 2021, 1:20 AM UTC

true_religion wrote: post #223

Diggsey wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's absolutely micromanaging and negative. The goal of school isn't just to pass the tests. If a kid fails to revise for a test, but it doesn't matter because their parent will just look up the schedule and force them to revise, then they learn nothing beyond what's in the test. If they fail to revise and as a result do badly at the test, then next time they might actually take the initiative and revise through th…

You're saying that the negative results of failing a test should come from the school and not the parent. I don't see why this is true. A school will grade a student down, but often kids will simply just not care about that unless there's impetus to do so from their peer group or people they rely on as a role models (e.g. parents). Also, when talking about kids... I think it's useful to clarify what age group you thi…

[deleted]

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#309

Post by zmmmmm » Fri, Nov 05, 2021, 1:20 AM UTC

KajMagnus wrote: post #294

zmmmmm wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How I parse it and present it is up to me as citizen I know technologists like to think that way but very often the law doesn't work like that. They will think about intent - was the intent to give you the raw data or was the intent to convey a specific representation of it that may omit some parts or further transform or presentation layer changes to achieve a different final result to what the raw data would have…

> convey a specific representation ... is the "public document" you have access to, not the raw data Seems you're saying it might be illegal to convert a HTML file to PDF format, or to use a screen reader to read the text. I wonder in which country you are (where apparently there can be laws like that)

that would be a bit less clear I think .... perhaps it may make it more concrete to think about an example.

Say the education department has a requirement that where ever a student's grades are displayed, the legend to explain their meaning and a disclaimer about limitations is included. It could even be a hard requirement (like, they got sued once for not doing it so their lawyers have told them they must enforce this). So they are careful that in their app, that requirement is always satisfied, since failing to do that could lead to harmful confusion that could impact a student.

So in their view the "document" they made public is the fully rendered version of that. If you print it out you are effectively doing a transformation that preserves its form and essential characteristics. If you screen shot it, cut out the disclaimers and legend and then paste it on a public web site ... you could create the same problems that you are by taking raw data out of the API.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#310

Post by jacobolus » Fri, Nov 05, 2021, 1:22 AM UTC

losvedir wrote: post #286

Diggsey wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's absolutely micromanaging and negative. The goal of school isn't just to pass the tests. If a kid fails to revise for a test, but it doesn't matter because their parent will just look up the schedule and force them to revise, then they learn nothing beyond what's in the test. If they fail to revise and as a result do badly at the test, then next time they might actually take the initiative and revise through th…

FYI in English "revise" means something like "edit". You probably meant "review". I know in Spanish "revisar" can mean to review, so that caught my eye, and thought you might be tricked by a false cognate.

British English "revise" = American English "study".