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What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

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Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#301

Post by hirako2000 »

floatingatoll wrote: post #262
worker767424 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The abuse is worse on the merchant's side, but on the consumers, it's more like getting a cab to go to Morton's Meats, instead they take you to Shelly's Steaks (because they got a kickback), then say they'll take you to Morton's for no extra charge, but tell you how great Shelly's is, and you're already at Shelly's, so is it worth the extra effort?

So they're allowed to waste my time and earn a kickback, as long as they give me a free cab ride from their kickback to where I wanted to go in the first place? That sounds like it only works if my time that they wasted for selfish gain is valued at $0, which is obviously true as far as they are concerned, but certainly isn't true to me .

I don't defend dark patterns, it obviously is one there, but your time is worth zero when you pay zero. The analogy would be free taxi drivers taking your to their kicking back spots first. If your time is worth X, spend X. It may prove a bit difficult since the paid search engine marketplace isn't thriving. How much would you be willing to pay for a search engine that only displays organic results? There are actually free solutions easy to set up to get that from Google results, but I'm wondering since you mention value of time.

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#302

Post by account42 »

sokoloff wrote: post #280
lmm wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it’s $39.99 on W-S.com, I definitely want to see the place that’s willing to sell the same pan for $34.99, the EBay listing for $32.50, and the one selling a competing similar one for $29.99 even if those sites don’t have the organic search SEO juice to land in the top 10. But why would those sites not have the "organic search SEO juice"? If those sites are actually good places to buy that kind of thing, a good…

I think it's fairly clear that Amazon and Ebay would show up as the top organic results. What wouldn't show up is lmm-cookware.com, launched early October 2021, who is trying to establish themselves as a new destination for cooking enthusiasts. That domain is new, the business is new, no Google reviews, but they've got the pan in stock, are willing to sell it for $30 shipped, and have an advertising budget to reach c…

> I think it's fairly clear that Amazon and Ebay would show up as the top organic results.

Why? How websites are ranked "organically" is somethine that is up to the search engine. A user-focused search engine would have no problem including factors like price (for shopping sites) that the user cares about. An even better one might provide the user with options to refine the ranking criteria for each search.

Meanwhile you keep assuming that somehow the site willing to give you the best deal will also be the one winning the advertising bid. That makes no sense as they are also the site spending the most on advertisement which they have to recoup somehow.

> As a consumer, I want to be able to learn about that offer, make my own decision where to buy the pan.

You seem to be under the impression that you would be missing out on an offer without ads. But if you only look at a finite set of links you are always missing some offers - ads only change which offers you see. And they do that not based on any judgment of wheter it would be a good offer for you but only by how much those sites paid.

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#303

Post by sam0x17 »

jameshush wrote: post #283
sam0x17 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in the early 00s clicks on Mesothelioma were something like $24 a click because anyone who could spell it probably has it and is looking to sue.

“Mesothelioma Lawyer” was still one of the highest cost clicks when I was working in ad tech about 2 years ago. IIRC the cost was north of $50

As a script kiddie I made a pretty penny keyword stuffing that on my network of ad-infected web proxies.

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#305

Post by account42 »

bambax wrote: post #152
simonsarris wrote: post #2

> Technically, when someone does a Google search for “Williams Sonoma Cast Iron Skillet,” they probably would have clicked on one of the first 10 organic results, EVERY ONE OF WHICH leads to their website. But, y’know what ol’ Billy Ma’s performance marketers couldn’t then do: prove their value to their bosses. > [picture of that search term and williams sonoma ads with shopping links] The main problem here is that i…

So in a way, big advertisers that are leaders in their markets would be favorable to adblockers, because they free them of the need to do defensive advertising. One could argue that no advertising is hard for the challengers, but in today's situation they are outspent anyway, so what do they have to lose? The conclusion is that both incumbents and challengers would be better off in a world where no advertising exists…

Yeah, it's mostly a prisoner's dilemma where if someone spends on ads then their competitors also have to spend. The only one really profiting in the end are the ad companies.

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#306

Post by croes »

aerosmile wrote: post #274
croes wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Also, as another member pointed out, Airbnb's performance marketing budget is still well over $200M/year, which no responsible/public company would spend if it wasn't returning a great ROAS That's not really an argument. You wish that a responsible/public company wouldn't do that but we have seen much dumber behavior.

Now I am curious - what are the examples of unprofitable performance marketing campaigns at that scale conducted by public companies?

My point is not exclusively advertising but that it is wishful thinking that companies always make sensible decisions. Often enough, useless or even harmful things continue to be pushed through, simply so that one doesn't have to admit to oneself that one has made a mistake. They would rather try to achieve a positive result with larger investments after all, which usually fails and leads to even larger losses, than to exit early and get away with smaller losses. Therefore, the statement that a reasonable company would not act this way is not covered by reality. Companies should not act this way, but they do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#307

Post by inthewoods »

aerosmile wrote: post #275
inthewoods wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Also, as another member pointed out, Airbnb's performance marketing budget is still well over $200M/year, which no responsible/public company would spend if it wasn't returning a great ROAS. Finally, Airbnb is known for all sorts of marketing shenanigans in their early days, and they certainly can't take the credit for a pure brand play." My experience is exactly the opposite. The larger the budget, the less real ha…

The larger the budget, the more sophisticated the teams and the methodology. Also, more players eager to accuse marketing of poor performance (eg: sales and revenue teams). Not sure where you made that experience, but that marketing team would get fired within a quarter at any large scale company I am familiar with. Large companies are inefficient in many ways, but not in what pays the bills.

Many of the large companies will say "we have a complex sales cycle" (and they often do) and leverage multi-touch attribution models which removes the direct ROI calculation.

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#308

Post by rightbyte »

codetrotter wrote: post #17
MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if Williams Sonoma was not advertising on that search term, Lodge and Food52 etc etc would If I as a customer am using such specific search terms, then I would assume that my intention is to find and possibly buy this specific product. The results of other brands might be annoying, but why should I click on them? The relevant results are still displayed on the first page.

For example if the customer was previously not familiar with Williams Sonoma but had seen an ad in the paper or on TV or on the subway etc, that caused them to search for Williams Sonoma cast iron skillet. And beside that a lot of people routinely misclick or click on ads not understanding that they are ads even when they are marked as such.

> a lot of people routinely misclick

So much this on phones. I think I missclicked adds like 10 times in a year, before realizing there where adblockers on Firefox mobile. Zero legitimate clicks. Never happens me on desktop, unless there is a screen jump scam.

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#309

Post by adotjdotr »

I've run ads for well over a decade: above the line and digital. All media works, to some extent and the main issue is the way marketing teams on the advertiser measure them. I've also run campaigns you'll all have seen or heard of.

So the idea it is a scam is stupid.

Re: What if performance advertising is just an analytics scam?

#310

Post by karlkloss »

adotjdotr wrote: post #309

I've run ads for well over a decade: above the line and digital. All media works, to some extent and the main issue is the way marketing teams on the advertiser measure them. I've also run campaigns you'll all have seen or heard of. So the idea it is a scam is stupid.

If you are okay with everybody hating you, then it's probably a good career choice.
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