Confessions of a Michelin Star Inspector • Hacker News Board

Re: Confessions of a Michelin Star Inspector

#301

Post by petre » Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 9:01 PM UTC

jiggawatts wrote: post #89

tomcam wrote: post #3

Went to Paris and dined at a number of Michelin-starred places, including Le Cinq. The food was fine, but... I didn't get it! I think there is a culinary language that I understand as little as a typical Michelin-starred chef would be able to evaluate a tightly-written C program. On the other hand I was lucky enough to dine at Poppy Seattle every year of its existence and felt their completely original approach to th…

I've been to two Michelin-starred Sushi places in Japan. I thought they were both amazing, but I realised that my parents would not have thought so. They grew up relatively poor, and still have the habit of eating at home from a rotating menu of relatively straightforward recipes. Stews, soups, that kind of thing. They've gone to restaurants maybe a few dozen times in their lives , if that. I've been to so many Sushi…

The Japanese don't necessarily agree with the Michelin guide for rating their restaurants. Some claim that the inspectors didn't proprly understand Japanese food and culture.

https://trulyexperiences.com/blog/the-asian-apathy-to-the-mi...

Re: Confessions of a Michelin Star Inspector

#302

Post by coolgeek » Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 9:46 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #142

jiggawatts wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been to two Michelin-starred Sushi places in Japan. I thought they were both amazing, but I realised that my parents would not have thought so. They grew up relatively poor, and still have the habit of eating at home from a rotating menu of relatively straightforward recipes. Stews, soups, that kind of thing. They've gone to restaurants maybe a few dozen times in their lives , if that. I've been to so many Sushi…

> The difference would be completely lost on them. I've definitely heard the life advice to avoid trying this kind of thing in case you do like it, then everything less is permanently tainted with the knowledge that it's not as good. However, western super-high-price dining tends to be one or both of "demoscene for food" or "NFTs for food" - demoscene: a series of increasingly elaborate and labor-intensive techniques…

I like the demoscene and NFT analogies.

I think you're missing the point on the compromise. It's not simply about the price.

Look for ethnic restaurants whose primary clientele is their fellow countrymen. (Easy to find in a large city. Less so in the suburbs.) This is where you will find the intersection of low price and high quality product.

Mexican and Asian places abound in this category. But you can find just about anything in a large city - Middle Eastern, South American, even European (especially eastern)

Re: Confessions of a Michelin Star Inspector

#303

Post by refurb » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 12:39 AM UTC

moehm wrote: post #299

refurb wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But quality is still a subjective measure to a large extent. Sure, if something is so salty it's not palatable or your cheesecake is lumpy, one can have a more objective assessment. But even if "professional tasters" agree on what balance means, that's still a subjective measure agreed upon by a select group. As someone who has eaten at Michelin star restaurant and had a mediocre experience, I'm of the mind if I like…

First, it's okay if you enjoy some things and others don't. No critic says you have to enjoy what a "select group" (aka experts) thinks is good quality. Studying food is not different from studying music. Everyone can hear the music and everyone tastes food (daily), but that does not make you an expert in both. > I'm of the mind if I like it then it's an enjoyable experience For you as a normal person that is totally…

But my point is the “good critic” is doing nothing more than I am - sharing their own subjective personal preferences?

The only difference is they share the same preference as other “good critics”.

There is no objective measure that says their subjective experience is more “correct” than mine.

It’s no different than art, wine, music, etc.

Re: Confessions of a Michelin Star Inspector

#304

Post by moehm » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 2:14 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #303

moehm wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, it's okay if you enjoy some things and others don't. No critic says you have to enjoy what a "select group" (aka experts) thinks is good quality. Studying food is not different from studying music. Everyone can hear the music and everyone tastes food (daily), but that does not make you an expert in both. > I'm of the mind if I like it then it's an enjoyable experience For you as a normal person that is totally…

But my point is the “good critic” is doing nothing more than I am - sharing their own subjective personal preferences? The only difference is they share the same preference as other “good critics”. There is no objective measure that says their subjective experience is more “correct” than mine. It’s no different than art, wine, music, etc.

Again, if you judge a wine, spirits and probably a dish you aren't looking for what you like, but for more objective criteria. Those criteria aren't measured with technology, but the tongue, nose and experience of the taster.

I never said it is totally objective (it can't be, because it involves humans), but it is way less subjective than one might think.

Those criteria are e.g. complexity, typicity, balance, off-flavors etc and are widely understood. In every wine tasting I participated we had a tasting sheet where we scored a numerical value. There was never a discussion if we "agree on what balance means".

In the last tasting (some time ago) we examined a type of wine a co-taster didn't liked at all, but still scored pretty high. Because personal preference != quality of the product.

The real problem is that quality doesn't directly translate to enjoyment. I guess most people look for enjoyable wines, not "good" ones. But enjoyment is personal, I don't know which wines you enjoy. But if you ask me blind, I can recommend you some which are at least worth trying. We can fight on quality, but not on enjoyment.

And for me, this is the value I get out of professional recommendations: Which things are worth trying, in wine, food or music.

Foot note: If you don't trust me (why should you), go and ask a Master of Wine how they judge wine. I'm not a MW, but had the honor and luck to work with some really knowledgable people.

Re: Confessions of a Michelin Star Inspector

#305

Post by wolverine876 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 5:27 AM UTC

4ad wrote: post #188

wolverine876 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In every domain - food, vpns, literature, etc. - I have more or less sophisticated taste (as does everyone). When I was young, I was skeptical of and even sometimes mocked the 'so-called experts' - possibly because (naturally, due to time) I'd developed sophistication in so little. I was very wise. But over time I found that when I develop sophistication in things, the 'so-called experts' suddenly become very smart a…

You are of course right but... vpns?? How does "taste" in vpns work?

My GP was about "sophistication", not taste (though of course the latter can be part of the former).

Re: Confessions of a Michelin Star Inspector

#306

Post by dazc » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 6:28 AM UTC

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #240

dazc wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in Spain for a couple of years and I was of the understanding that many bars, cafes and restaurants existed on this basis. A waiter in a restaurant I frequented regularly explained this to me as to how, despite working there for 3 years, he couldn't just go and work in the UK for a few months and come back because he could so easily be replaced. I witnessed myself, on many occasions, groups of kids coming in,…

> groups of kids coming in, filling in forms and being interviewed for these non-paid intern positions. Kids applying to be interns in not the same thing than staff being unpaid and slave labor. That put clear limits on the duration of they work and that means they have no qualification. It's just a normal internship. Three stars restaurant tend to have many interns because they have a lot of basic prep work to do an…

I'm taking the word of an actual Spanish waiter on this one, thanks very much.

Re: Confessions of a Michelin Star Inspector

#307

Post by diffeomorphism » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 6:44 AM UTC

phonypc wrote: post #284

diffeomorphism wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is confusing off with undesired. In other words "would it still taste like this if the chef had spent more time/effort/money". Cilantro tasting like cilantro -> great. Cilantro tasting like it is old/thawed/burnt -> not great. Taste being "off" is about unintentional deviation.

Disagree. Clear-cut off-flavors are just those people tend to be in alignment about being undesired. (e.g. burnt). The flavor of cilantro can be intentionally present, but it's still an off-flavor for the minority of people who perceive it differently.

I would say it is an undesired flavor for these people not an off-flavor. And in the same vein I want a restaurant critic to tell me about off-flavors, but don't care if they personally like cilantro or not.

Re: Confessions of a Michelin Star Inspector

#308

Post by nicolas_t » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 8:15 AM UTC

jelliclesfarm wrote: post #300

nicolas_t wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I wonder if the Michelin inspector in two of the restaurants I know here who do not deserve a star were served other dishes. It's either that or the inspector rated the interior design and service.

They visit multiple times. A sub par restaurant would never earn its stars. In Europe anyways. I don’t know about Americas or Asia and beyond.

In Europe, I haven't had an objectively bad experience with michelin starred restaurants. A few of them were not to my taste in terms of seasoning but I could appreciate the execution and quality of ingredients.

In HK, I know two restaurants that are objectively not up to par in that the ingredients do not taste fresh, some of the dishes are served overcooked and in the worst case, one of the dish was served both burnt and cold. To be fair, I've tried a lot more michelin restaurants in Asia than in Europe so the sample size is a lot bigger.

To name and shame, the two restaurants I'm talking about are Man Wah and Summer Palace. I did have a not so great (but nowhere near as bad as the first two) experience at Run but the second visit was michelin star worthy so at least at that place, it's understandable that they'd get a michelin star (although it does point to the fact that the inspectors might not be visiting during busy weekday lunches)

Re: Confessions of a Michelin Star Inspector

#309

Post by bjarneh » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 1:02 PM UTC

rich_sasha wrote: post #179

bjarneh wrote: post #151

The worst part about some of these 3 star restaurants, is that staff are often unpaid. It's basically what Americans call an internship, i.e. the only "salary" is that you can add working in a 3 star restaurant to your CV. I once visited a 3 star restaurant in Spain (Arzak), where this was the case. If you look at the cost of eating there, and consider that most of the staff is unpaid, it really leaves a bad taste in…

> [...] that makes a few people obscenely rich [...] No contest that relying on unpaid labour is awful. But "obscenely rich"? My overwhelming impression is that despite all this, no one really gets rich on running restaurants. Certainly not when you factor them going out of business all the time (or even falling out of fashion, that's basically death for a Michelin starred eatery).

> My overwhelming impression is that despite all this, no one really gets rich on running restaurants.

Simple napkin-math from when I was at the restaurant. I.e. multiplying the amount of people at restaurant by the number of days in a year they were open, multiplied by how much one of those "tasting menus + wine pairing" cost (which almost everyone buys); would suggest that their revenue would be somewhere in the range of 20-30 million dollars in revenue a year. That restaurant is always full, I think we booked our table 6 months in advance.

Clearly they serve you expensive wine, and a lot of expensive produce goes into their food making. But I would guess that the main cost of running that place would be the cost of paying the employees; which they don't. That 3-star restaurant (and many others), are making their owners extremely rich.

The restaurant business is extremely competitive, and most businesses struggle, but some are making good money. I live in a small town in Norway (200.000 inhabitants), and even here there is a guy who runs a bunch of restaurants, with profits in excess of 3 million dollars annually.

Re: Confessions of a Michelin Star Inspector

#310

Post by jelliclesfarm » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:01 PM UTC

nicolas_t wrote: post #308

jelliclesfarm wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They visit multiple times. A sub par restaurant would never earn its stars. In Europe anyways. I don’t know about Americas or Asia and beyond.

In Europe, I haven't had an objectively bad experience with michelin starred restaurants. A few of them were not to my taste in terms of seasoning but I could appreciate the execution and quality of ingredients. In HK, I know two restaurants that are objectively not up to par in that the ingredients do not taste fresh, some of the dishes are served overcooked and in the worst case, one of the dish was served both bur…

Man Wah has been around for years and didn’t get a star until recently. For the longest time they didn’t even change the usual suspects on the menu. Until there was a chef change recently. They are closed for renovations..probably taking advantage of the pandemic. Interior was very dated. When did you go? I am sure the inspectors were tickled by the trad shark fin soup served alongside French Bresse poultry and game with heads on. Their one star is very very new. Summer Palace lost a star, iirc. I just checked and it’s one now. Used to be two stars.