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Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

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Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#301

Post by enkid »

fartingflamingo wrote: post #280
kxyvr wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the difficulty with the libertarian point of view regarding the COVID vaccine is that not all parties are given a free choice either. For example, if someone refuses a vaccine, should an emergency room be free to refuse care? Currently, they can not due to EMTALA. That's not to say that it's unreasonable to question and philosophize the implications of a mandate. At the same time, barring a more effec…

Let's word this more sharply. Hospital capacity being limited, should ill vaccine refusers be getting priority as they are getting right now? What if you get super unlucky, and you get contaminated and severely ill despite vaccination? Will they kick an unvaccinated covid patient from the one respirator?

Even more sharply, should the willfully unvaccinated take priority over lower priority but less life threatening diseases? If someone has the flu, and it looks like they'll make it, but the doctor wants them in the hospital just in case, should they get the bed over the unvaccinated person who is going to die without it?

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#302

Post by roenxi »

croon wrote: post #281
roenxi wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And everyone is going to get coronavirus sooner or later, regardless of how vaccinated the population is. Because if the virus was stopped dead by vaccination then it wouldn't matter what other people did, and if it isn't then ... vaccines aren't going to stop you catching it eventually. Besides, there have been crazy ideas floated like making an issue out of vaccinating people who have already had & recovered from C…

> Because if the virus was stopped dead by vaccination then it wouldn't matter what other people did, and if it isn't then ... vaccines aren't going to stop you catching it eventually. I'm not sure if you chose this binary line of thinking or if it was by accident, but you present the outcomes based on a 0 or 100% efficacy when it's not the case. It matters/ed what other people do, and if more people got vaccinated (…

> but more protection is always better than less

It isn't, immune systems are quite complicated:

"White House immunologist Dr Anthony Fauci offered the warning while giving an update on efforts to develop vaccines at an online US Senate hearing on Tuesday. He said: ‘I must warn that there’s also the possibility of negative consequences, where certain vaccines can actually enhance the negative effect of the infection.’ Dr Fauci later explained that in rare cases people vaccinated against a condition could end up contracting the virus they thought they’d been protected against, and falling more seriously-ill with that disease as a result" [0]

We should be letting people make their own choices.

[0] https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/12/americas-top-coronavirus-doct...

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#303

Post by croon »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #230
not2b wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's only been hard to get 2/3 of Americans to go along quite recently. Everyone lined up for vaccines in the 1950s and 1960s, numbers well over 90%.

Consider that in 1955 one of the companies producing the Salk Vaccine shipped 120,000 doses with live virus which sickened 40,000 children and sparked a polio epidemic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_Laboratories#Cutter_inc...

Why should we consider it? Billions of people have been vaccinated without a vaccine-caused epidemic.

We do however have a virus-caused epidemic, currently.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#304

Post by oliyoung »

totony wrote: post #228
ZetaZero wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this is due to the fact, that this is inherently undemocratic? SCOTUS ruled that mandatory vaccines are constitutional back in 1905. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

Note all the "reasonable" and "great danger" in the decision. It's unclear (and to be determined) if covid fits that description

> It's unclear (and to be determined) if covid fits that description

700,000 people have died in the United States 18 months, 4.5 million world wide.

Like, what else needs to happen for this pandemic to meet that description?

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#305

Post by zhdc1 »

donutdan4114 wrote: post #127

Gosh, disturbing comment section for disturbing times. When experimental medical treatments become mandatory for illnesses that have a 99%+ survival rate, and there is absolutely NO LONG TERM safety data, some red flags should be raised. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jktvh6k0qys

> Gosh, disturbing comment section for disturbing times. When experimental medical treatments become mandatory for illnesses that have a 99%+ survival rate, and there is absolutely NO LONG TERM safety data, some red flags should be raised.

The current case fatality rate is averaging around 2%, but that's with access to medical care.

The CFR at the early stages of the pandemic, and in countries without good medical systems, is much higher. See Italy during the first wave, which peaked at around 15%, or several Central and South American countries, which have averaged between 5% and 10%.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#306

Post by cortexio »

Daishiman wrote: post #189
swayvil wrote: post #138

A new vaccine. Rushed to market. Pushed upon us before it was even approved. Then rushed to approval. That's strange. I need to get this vaccine, not to protect myself, but to protect you. That's strange. That's 2 strange things in a row. When you see 2 strange things in a row like that, it smells fishy.

It's strange if you don't know anything about the subject. For the several billion people vaccinated all over the world there's nothing strange.

oof, i got some north korea vibes from your comment. They dont find it strange when there are dead people in the streets. They perceive the most horrible things as normal, because they have never known what "not normal" is. Anyway, it has nothing to do with your comment, but it made me think of that.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#307

Post by refurb »

betterunix2 wrote: post #55
woodpanel wrote: post #15

Regardless of where you stand with this policy, you gotta give it some Kudos: It's a very efficient way to cleanse your entire bureaucracy of doubters. I can't think of another example where a democratic republic, which by definition includes a spectrum of opinions, has its whole bureaucratic hierarchy re-aligned with the ruling party's platform. Maybe this is due to the fact, that this is inherently undemocratic?

Vaccination is not a political position. Vaccines only work if a large majority of people are vaccinated and people who refuse to receive the shot are putting everyone else in danger. A basic function of a government is to protect public safety, and that is what a vaccine mandate does.

Vaccines only work if a large majority are vaccinated

Thats not true at all. If I get vaccinated it reduces my risk of serious disease - the vaccine works.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#308

Post by judahmeek »

woodpanel wrote: post #194
betterunix2 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

COVID vaccination may have become a political position, but vaccination in general is not. Where are all the debates about MMR, hep-B, polio, etc.? We have required vaccinations in our children beginning in infancy for generations, and I am not hearing any governors or representatives saying that we must end the practice.

Each of these illnesses you state is multiple times more serious than covid. And each of their vaccines had the clear benefit of being an actual vaccine.

Hepatitis-B is more serious than Covid-19?

By what criteria?

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#309

Post by adriancr »

herbst wrote: post #298
adriancr wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair, although I could look at that open media as propaganda/brainwashing and reach a conclusion on media's effectiveness. I can also look at the past and ask if vaccines eradicated the diseases it was meant for... and for that it was incredibly effective.

But is that even true? Have you seen this graphic for example https://postimg.cc/CBJQF4dZ Edit:// I don't know how truthful it is. But vaccines seem not always the resolving factor. Source of the image: https://learntherisk.org/vaccines/diseases/

objectively, polio was eradicated via vaccine.

objectively, US had a fighting chance in its independence war due to George Washington's forced immunization of armies.

What you are sharing is proof that propaganda works. You are sharing non-scholarly articles from untrustworthy websites..

It's absurd because anyone can set up a website at anytime with charts/data saying anything we might want and reach any conclusion we want.

This is what you are sharing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learn_The_Risk but I guess you did not do your own research on what you are consuming... Their arguments are disputed in the wikipedia links if you want to inform yourself.

> Arguments against vaccination are contradicted by overwhelming scientific consensus about the safety and effectiveness of vaccines.[7][8][9][10]

It's also a non profit set up by an antivaxer that has no research/investigative capabilities, all they do is gather donations and spread fake data to gather more donations.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#310

Post by donapieppo »

donutdan4114 wrote: post #127

Gosh, disturbing comment section for disturbing times. When experimental medical treatments become mandatory for illnesses that have a 99%+ survival rate, and there is absolutely NO LONG TERM safety data, some red flags should be raised. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jktvh6k0qys

Without vaccine/lockdowns and too many people in need of hospitalization would it still be 99%?
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