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Benefits of Not Using an IDE

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Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#301

Post by Waterluvian »

mayankkaizen wrote: post #287
jkepler wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't another analogy be knowing how to navigate a boat with a sextant and a chronometer versus modern radio and GPS maritime navigational aides? The latter's more efficient, but those with deep knowledge of navigation understand how to use the former if necessary.

As someone replied to GP, you should definitely know how to complete tasks with only basic tools and without advanced tools. But it doesn't mean you should only use basic tools or no tools at all. I mean I do know how to calculate without calculator but it doesn't mean I dont use calculator. I use it all the time. Of course deep knowledge almost always means that you have a strong hold on the basics.

Yep. I was taught how to navigate with a compass and sextant and such.

And then we did it once.

And then we used GPS and Total Stations ever since.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#302

Post by h4x0r12345 »

cgh wrote: post #37

For context, the author is a student with little real-world work experience producing software for a paycheque. To put it mildly, there’s a lot more to writing software in a modern work environment than your choice of editor or whatever.

Exactly. The youngsters like to show off their L337 hacky editor configurations. The rest of us are just getting actual work done in IntelliJ or Visual Studio.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#303

Post by l0b0 »

wokwokwok wrote: post #34

Listen, long story short: just say no to nonsense like this. Given the choice of a) tooling, or b) no tooling, you’re not being smart, cool or clever by choosing b. Obviously, what tools you pick are important and heavy IDEs like IntelliJ are a trade off between speed and functionality, and yeah, more nimble tools do exist, and it’s definitely worth trying different development tools to see what makes you most produc…

Definitely. There's no dichotomy though. I use some of the features of my IDE: editing obviously, interactive debugging and just general exploration via Ctrl-click are infinitely faster and more powerful than anything I've used on the command line. It's not great for everything though. So I keep swapping to the terminal for everything which I find more effective there: Git, running tests, creating projects, and the like.

Basically, don't think a single toolset is always going to be superior to your other toolsets. Feel free to mix and match, and change over from one toolset to the other when it's convenient or just more efficient. But of course moderation isn't going to get the clicks.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#304

Post by realusername »

kevindong wrote: post #277
realusername wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know I'll make some people not happy by saying this but the only reason you need so much complex IDE tooling with Java compared to other languages is because the language itself & the tools associated to it are not very well designed. Just about everything requires some insane boilerplate where it should not. It's not a solution to a problem, it's a problem searching for a solution.

I don't entirely disagree. But the situation is what it is. The reality is that Java at this point is a mature platform broadly supported by many, many stakeholders. Its benefits and issues are, in general, decently well known and understood. Billions (likely even trillions) of lines of Java are running in production today and those applications will need to be maintained moving forward. IDEs make Java development a…

Yes I do understand why things evolved that way, it does make sense, all the tooling is there to improve the environment. I just personally don't want to work with such tech as much as I can though.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#305

Post by touisteur »

szatkus wrote: post #227
rzwitserloot wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do I have to spin up a whole session of the IDE just to run my test suite? In the java ecosystem at least, the answer is no. But in highly CI-based situations, the answer is still no, but you DO need the CI system to be up, and the only way to run a test at all is to just commit something and see the CI system run it, e.g. because the tests require a database engine that isn't installed on your development machine.…

In my current organization I saw a project, where there is no Maven. The build system is a couple of configuration files for Eclipse IDE and that's the only way to run it. I'm glad I didn't have to do anything around that.

The ant eclipse plugin does some lifting for you. Sometimes, it can be better this way than having 2 buildthings not in sync... But yeah ant all the way if everyone's happy with it...

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#306

Post by nicoburns »

dntrkv wrote: post #85
nicoburns wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on which ecosystem you're working with you may be able to get those tools elsewhere. If you're working with client-side JavaScript for example, then you have multiple choices of browsers with excellent debuggers built in.

That’s still not the same as debugging within your IDE. Having to switch from the browser back to your IDE to find the files to make changes is just another context switch that slows you down. Plus, dealing with async loaded files can be a pain in the browser.

You can actually configure chrome to be able to edit your local files and save changes directly. Although admittedly it was a bit unreliable when I tried it.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#307

Post by the_third_wave »

9front wrote: post #207
the_third_wave wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power drills are simple tools, they are the 'vi' equivalent of the 'ed' manual drill. The physical equivalent of an IDE would be a laser-guided auto-centering/levelling drill with automatic drill bit changer/sharpener, depth guide, dust evacuation and material sensor with automatic lookup for which hole size and depth to use for the given task. It would weigh 15 kg, need an external power pack and be unusable in tigh…

The Hole-Hawg drill is the IDE equivalent. Recently discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28015229

No, a Hole-Hawg [1] - made famous in these circles by Neal Stephenson's essay 'In the beginning was the command line' [1] - is just a powerful drill without any bells and whistles, a "lump of metal with a handle sticking out of it". It would be more sort of an 'ed on steroids', trading off ease of use for raw power.

[1] https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Drilling/...

[2] https://web.archive.org/web/20180218045352/http://www.crypto...

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#308

Post by the_third_wave »

dogma1138 wrote: post #159
the_third_wave wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, a CNC machine is a distinct entity which enables the user to create objects which can not be created using only a power drill. The lower-tech predecessor of a CNC machine is a milling machine [1], not a hand-held drill. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milling_(machining)

There isn’t anything a CNC can make that someone with a file and a lot of times on their hands cant. Heck you can do that with a drill too mostly using jigs. I had to create a few times quite complex shapes from a block of aluminum and what I did I just 3D print a bunch of jigs and drilled out 98-99% of the material away in the same way a CNC would and finished it with dremmel.

> There isn’t anything a CNC can make that someone with a file and a lot of times on their hands cant.

True, but the comparison here was against a power drill, not a person with a file and lots of time on his hands. While it may be theoretically possible to achieve the accuracy of a CNC mill using a power drill it would not be the tool of choice. Achieving the repeatability of a CNC mill using hand tools is hard, the more complex the piece the harder it becomes.

To get back to basics without getting lost in a forest of tools these comparisons are based around the 'To IDE, or not to IDE' question. The CNC mill was pulled in through a side door but doesn't really feature in the comparison which was between a simple power drill and the hypothetical 'smart drill' I dubbed 'megadrill' which tries to be as 'helpful' as possible. Some people would like such a contraption, others would shun it.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#309

Post by neonbones »

beebeepka wrote: post #180
ausbah wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

real men use punchcards write bug free code from the get go

I've had some 20 year olds with such attitude. Me: you realise always doing things the hard way does not improve your output, right? Young jedi: nah, it's fine. GUI only slows me down, also Perl is the best Me: alright then

Well, this is my friends and me in my early 20s. The only true way is to use vim/emacs, CLI tools for everything. GUI is for losers. And the only TRUE and SERIOUS languages for COOL KIDS are C++, Haskell, and Perl. If you don't use them, you are code monkey.

And here I am, doing everything in typescript for my job, use VSCode and Webstorm, in love with GitKraken. What a shame. I'm not a cool kid anymore.

Re: Benefits of Not Using an IDE

#310

Post by tpoacher »

wokwokwok wrote: post #34

Listen, long story short: just say no to nonsense like this. Given the choice of a) tooling, or b) no tooling, you’re not being smart, cool or clever by choosing b. Obviously, what tools you pick are important and heavy IDEs like IntelliJ are a trade off between speed and functionality, and yeah, more nimble tools do exist, and it’s definitely worth trying different development tools to see what makes you most produc…

You seem to be mistaking lack of an IDE with lack of tooling ...
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