Earlier quoted context omitted.
But that's the big difference, cloud providers are scanning the data they hold on their device. Your iphone is not Apple's device. Cloud providers have a liability if they knowingly store illegal content, the data is stored on their property, Apple does not, it is your property. It's like if Ford was going to scan what you store in the trunk of your car.
The headline is misleading. The rumored change only impacts photos your device is uploading to iCloud, and it seems like Apple servers are a necessary part of the protocol.
Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery
301–310 of 390 posts
Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery
#302Earlier quoted context omitted.
Plain file hashing for this kind of thing has not been used for years (or even decades), Microsoft came out with Photo DNA along time ago, and I am sure now days they have something ML powered to do it. I am not sure the accuracy of these systems but even if they are pretty accurate there is something off putting about this trend. This very much feels like a Guilty until proven innocent type of program... "if you hav…
> Guilty until proven innocent type of program But this software doesn’t make arrests? A comparison would be police asking for what cellphones were in an area. There should be a lot of due process that happens before anything comes of this. I imagine police won’t look into one photo, they would want to match more than one. I agree though, the scary part might be how to clear your name after an overreaction occurs, si…
I doubt they need, or want to match more than one. They'll use the reasoning that it only catches already-known child pornography, and that that person might have a whole cache of novel child pornography. Just look at the drug wars and how many people get arrested for trivial quantities of marijuana. And we hate child pornography way more than drugs.
> As long as there’s due process and a presumption of innocence, I’m all in favour of making it harder for criminals to get away with crimes.
The judicial system has a presumption of innocence. No one else does, or has any requirement to. The court of public opinion will ruin your life regardless of whether it's true or not.
That would be far less concerning if active cases were sealed, and only published if the defendant was ruled guilty.
> That all said… child porn is really, really terrible and I’m actually in favour of this.
I have a slight disagreement with this. The production of child pornography is obviously abhorrent. This system does nothing to stop that though, because it can only flag already-known child pornography.
This system stops the consumption of already produced and documented child pornography. While it's far outside my own interests, I can see some validity to the argument that consumption is of far less concern because it doesn't directly involve any abuse. The abuse has already happened, and no amount of tracking down pedophiles is going to reverse that. There are second order effects, like potentially reducing the demand for novel child pornography, though. Which leads me to this:
> But what other options do we have to stop these sort of crimes when the kids involved can’t or won’t speak up?
I would imagine this is far more likely to affect consumers than producers. In the drug market, stop and frisk is far more likely to net you users than producers or dealers. For one, there are more users than dealers/producers. For two, dealers, but particularly producers, are typically far more cautious than users.
That's a long-winded way of saying again that this doesn't seem likely to do much in the way of stopping people from abusing children.
But to directly answer your question: doing nothing is absolutely a valid option here. We do that for lots of bad things that happen when the costs of the solution are unbearable. It's what we're currently doing for famine in other parts of the world, which almost surely impacts more children than child pornography could even dream of doing. It's what we do for cars, which again, almost certainly impacts more children than child pornography does.
We wait until we can find a method with benefits commensurate to its costs. A 2016 DoJ report said that since 2002, 10,500 victims have been located and identified by law enforcement. That's 750 per year. There are 74 million children under 18 in the US, so that's 0.001% of children per year. 10,500 people is only 200 people higher than died from "accidental suffocation and strangling in bed" over the same period according to the CDC. The scale of the problem is the same, so should we go ahead and let Amazon send pings to the police if your Alexa thinks your suffocating in bed too?
Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery
#303I really don't see how this is going to end well, there could be perfectly innocent photos on someone's phone of their own children doing perfectly normal things that kids do. Like a kid running butt naked around the house, or a photo of something like a rash that is sent to a nurse friend for advice on what it is etc. I'm all for protecting children from being abused, but how are they going to filter what is normal…
What I don't understand is how is it even constitutional in the US. Isn't it a warrant-less search? It's not like scanning content on a cloud. The cloud owns the device on which you store your data. But you own your mobile.
Which isn't true for Apple. Not too sure about Android. But everything you do on your Apple Devices, including its Hardware, Software and its Services, works more like Apple lend it to you for a price.
And as other mention, only the government and not a private company.
Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery
#304Earlier quoted context omitted.
But you can be jailed for 18 months for not giving it up
Not if your lawyer is any good.
Nope, federal law states they can hold you for 18 months. So long as they can claim to already know what's on the device (which they will, because Apple pinged them about it), they can hold you for 18 months.
Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery
#305Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is zero AI classification involved, it’s a lookup vs hashes of known child porn images. You would need a hash collision, misidentified photo in the dataset, or legitimate use case to end up with a false positive.
The article says that Apple calls this system neuralMatch. I'm not sure why that name gives you confidence that there is zero AI involved?
Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery
#306Earlier quoted context omitted.
The constitution constrains what the Federal government can do, not what private companies can do.
Not that I am qualified to hold a legal debate, but as far as I know, if Apple implements this under the pressure from the state, and that it reports what it findings to the state, it is effectively an agent of the state and it should apply.
Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery
#307It also means that you can't have any trust about your data safety even if you never put it in the cloud.
Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery
#308Earlier quoted context omitted.
> perfectly innocent photos on someone's phone of their own children They are using a library of human verified images to compare the hashes. Probably similar to PhotoDNA[0]. There can be false positives, but AFAIK the algorithms are not trying to identify naked children, but comparing 2 similar image hashes. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhotoDNA
It's still bad. I used to scrape pictures from many legal pornography sites. I still have hundreds of thousands of pictures. Since many are user uploaded, I imagine a small number could be real CP. Thank God, I don't use Apple. (I should probably delete them, since I've basically never used them... although they could be useful for one of those end-of-world Raspberry Pi builds: https://back7.co/home/raspberry-pi-quic…
Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery
#309Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's still bad. I used to scrape pictures from many legal pornography sites. I still have hundreds of thousands of pictures. Since many are user uploaded, I imagine a small number could be real CP. Thank God, I don't use Apple. (I should probably delete them, since I've basically never used them... although they could be useful for one of those end-of-world Raspberry Pi builds: https://back7.co/home/raspberry-pi-quic…
> Since many are user uploaded, I imagine a small number must be real CP. I mean, that is actually illegal. The problem here is the possession of child pornography.
Re: Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery
#310In a world where all police were incorruptible and all laws were just, maybe I'd be ok with this. But since we live in this world, I feel like it's only a matter of time until the "think of the children" technology is coopted to scan for other "bad" images. I wonder how long it'll take for China to compel Apple to add winnie_the_pooh.jpg to the set of naughty images for users in China and HK? And like we saw when bin…
All iCloud Data in China are already within their control. The whole DataCenter are done with "partnership" agreement.
HK user have their Data in US but I believe there could be a temporary server in HK DC before it is sent to US.