Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen • Hacker News Board

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#301

Post by simion314 » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 12:05 PM UTC

slashdev wrote: post #243

simion314 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can explain how comparing North and South Korea is fair I would be impressed , previous dudes seemed to have no idea about history or their mind was missing the logic skill, maybe you can do a semi decent attempt. Btw China is a big economy and many of HNers tell me that their are communists and the party dictates everything etc, so you need some other skillful argument to attribute all the good in China to US…

> previous dudes seemed to have no idea about history or their mind was missing the logic skill I'm getting less and less sure you're qualified to judge that as we go. > Btw China is a big economy and many of HNers tell me that their are communists and the party dictates everything etc, so you need some other skillful argument to attribute all the good in China to US and capitalism and of-course blame all the bad on…

>You've got literally 40 case studies,

Garbage In Garbage Out

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#302

Post by virgilp » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 12:10 PM UTC

namdnay wrote: post #139

virgilp wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... are we pretending here that the ICE and gas & all the plumbing etc don't weigh anything? It's not like PHEV have zero additional dead weight. A quick search says "Car engines can weigh up to 1,000 pounds" and "Tesla S has a massive battery weighing 1,200 lbs" - so, are your really saving that much weight with PHEVs?

Car engines can weigh up to 1000 pounds, but the standard weight is much lower. the VW group 1.4 turbo (probably one of the most common engines around) comes in at 230lb

I feel like this is a bit of a double standard.

If we're questioning "focus on range of 400km or more" then we're already looking at the high-end EVs. Sure there are ligther engines around, but so are lighter batteries, no? Heavy powerful ICEs sell because they're desirable, not because they're the most practical. Long-range EVs sell because they're desirable, not because they're the best match for the average person. I have no doubt that as soon as reasonable city infrastructure exists for EV charging, there'll be a lot of BEVs with small batteries for driving around the city.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#303

Post by mikem170 » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

ppp_qqq wrote: post #290

mikem170 wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is an argument that can be made (whether good or not, not sure) that politicians represent the interest of people including whether they want Toyota to flourish or not, and represent the employee of Toyota, etc. We supposedly live in a democracy, where the people are supposed to be in charge, not abstract constructs like companies, unions, or trade associations. People vote, not companies. People should be fu…

> Why should a CEO or small group of people get to decide how to deploy enormous resources to influence politician's so that they do things that run counter to the public good, just so they can make more money? This is what corporations are legally obligated to do, right? Make more money. In an ideal world, everyone is looking for each other. But this is not an ideal world. CEOs, politicians, employees, and even the…

I didn't mean to sidetrack into democracy vs. representative government (separate discussion!). I may have used the term democracy in my above post a bit loosely, to mean the people's control of the government. It would be more accurate for me to say I'm concerned about the outsized influence money has over the government (corporations, unions, trade associations, and the rich) have over the government, versus the influence people have.

It seems that we enshrined political contributions as free speech in this country, and I'm not sure that right, allowing pac and dark money to buy mass media advertising to manipulate voters at scale. That just seems a way to subvert one person equals one vote. This seems to get worse and worse every decade. We're just starting to see what international companies larger than most governments in the world can do with petabytes of personal data and algorithms designed to take advantage of all that.

I may still misunderstand, but you used Toyota as an example, the political lobbying the company does on behalf of its customers and workers. When I read this I think that they are lobbying on behalf of shareholder profit, often to detriment of their workers (anti-union, for example), customers (less mandated safety), and the public at large (less pollution regulations). it seems more and more that the deck is stacked in favor of large corporations and the rich.

I know that our conversation has drifted around a little bit. I appreciate being able to refine my thoughts on this.

Do you think that some method of publicly funding campaigns would better than what we have now, more in the spirit of one person equals one vote? Also limits to how long campaigns last and how they are conducted? There are other countries that do this. In fact the U.S. seems to be an outlier in how we allow money to influence politics.

I grant that this would need to be done despite the establishment not wanting to change. I also grant, like you said, it may be near impossible to eliminate the effect of money on politics. But it scares me to think what will happen if we continue on our current course.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#304

Post by eloff » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #301

slashdev wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> previous dudes seemed to have no idea about history or their mind was missing the logic skill I'm getting less and less sure you're qualified to judge that as we go. > Btw China is a big economy and many of HNers tell me that their are communists and the party dictates everything etc, so you need some other skillful argument to attribute all the good in China to US and capitalism and of-course blame all the bad on…

>You've got literally 40 case studies, Garbage In Garbage Out

More like sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring the evidence that doesn't fit with your world view.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#305

Post by Hypx_ » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

nickik wrote: post #300

Hypx_ wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A hydrogen fuel cell is the highest energy density battery possible. It doesn't how more advanced li-ion or a variant of it gets, hydrogen fuel cells will still have a higher energy density. Furthermore, by the time you're talking about metal-air batteries you are basically build a fuel cell but with metals. Which is to say you're just building fuel cells that are fundamentally inferior than something that already ex…

Good luck betting on that. But show me the tech because: > From their website: Storage is 30% lighter, 7% smaller, and 17% less expensive than Lithium-ion battery per kWh. This is nonsense that wont happen.

Current fuel cell tech with compressed hydrogen has an energy density of above 1,000 Wh/kg. It's already far beyond what li-ion can provide.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#306

Post by thehappypm » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 7:38 PM UTC

Hypx_ wrote: post #247

thehappypm wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way is hydrogen cheaper?

It's cheaper overall since you don't need to worry about a heavy battery. This is already the case for larger vehicles: https://cafcp.org/sites/default/files/07-24-2020-Foothill-ZE... This likely to be true for more types of vehicles as hydrogen gets cheaper.

Sure, but you need to carry a fuel cell or ICE, and a hydrogen tank full of hydrogen. I don't think hydrogen based cars will be fundamentally lighter than battery powered ones.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#307

Post by simion314 » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

eloff wrote: post #304

simion314 wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You've got literally 40 case studies, Garbage In Garbage Out

More like sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring the evidence that doesn't fit with your world view.

Dude, your evidence is flawed

you want to prove that green color is better then red, so you put a rat in a green box, a rat in a red box, then you starve the rat in the red box and give a ton of food to the green rat.

Then like a "genius self claimed scientist" you claim to prove that this is a valid experiment that proves that green is better then red.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#308

Post by theluketaylor » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

BoorishBears wrote: post #299

theluketaylor wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the components you listed scale down in turn But don't go away altogether, which is my point. There is a space cost to be paid in any PHEV that is significant, both in absolute volume terms as well as prime placement. The engine occupies extremely valuable real estate. In a pure EV that's space you can move the cab forward for more legroom or cargo space (or just make the car's overall footprint smaller). > Aff…

There's no point continuing this if you insist on displaying such a deep misunderstanding of PHEVs. You literally still can't get past the fundamental point half of what you listed as needed for an ICE is already needed for a BEV. Even the Model 3 has an oil pump and filter! The packaging challenges faced are not somehow forcing you to stick the engine in some magical super important place where batteries would never…

> displaying such a deep misunderstanding of PHEVs.

Don't misunderstand them at all, and I have volt in my top 5 best cars of the last 20 years for regular people. I just think the time of the PHEV has come and gone. Used they are still interesting buys, but I wouldn't spend any money on a new combustion engine anymore.

> I have no idea why you're acting like a frunk is some sacred place you're robbed of if there's an engine there when several BEVs have come out without them.

Never said engine space needed to be used for a frunk (though that has been a common choice). MEB is a notable BEV platform with no frunk, but they used that space to move the cab forward significantly, adding valuable passenger and luggage space. MEB cars have pretty insane rear seat room for their overall size class and it's becuase the whole passenger shell moved forward by approx. one transverse engine. Frunks are not necessary, but what's valuable is re-claiming prime space that has always been eaten by engines. Having an engine connected to the wheels forces your hand on a whole bunch of decisions about front wheel and steering rack placement, length of the front control arms, height of the hood, etc. The list is very long.

> Like do you not realize a Model S has a radiator?

And it's 1/3 to 1/4 the size of an ICE radiator of similar kW power output.

>Or that there are ICE cars with engines everywhere from the front to the back of the car?

Mid-engine cars are great to drive, but come with extreme space sacrifices in the pursuit of weight distribution and handling (not to mention typically horrible access for maintenance). Rear engine cars like beetle and 911 are truly interesting for packaging, but have a number of downsides of their own. It took porsche 30 years and tons of developments in tire technology to kill the lift-off oversteer in the 911.

> PHEVs are poised to fill the gap when reality comes home to roost

When studies showed the majority of PHEV owners in the EU didn't ever plug them in I soured significantly on PHEVs as a concept. Turns out people having to actively choose daily to reduce emissions doesn't result in the best results. Perhaps if there was punishing enough carbon taxes, but as it stands PHEVs in the rear world have fallen far short of the ideal.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#309

Post by trixie_ » Fri, Jul 30, 2021, 3:45 PM UTC

b112 wrote: post #113

trixie_ wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've got some weird obsession with hydrogen.. even recently I've seen a lot of online advertising for their hydrogen vehicle the Mirai which is wildly impractical in the US and probably anywhere else.

It's extremely practical, they just need a refueling network.

“They just need a refueling network” - case in point, wildly impractical to buy one today.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#310

Post by eloff » Fri, Jul 30, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #307

eloff wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring the evidence that doesn't fit with your world view.

Dude, your evidence is flawed you want to prove that green color is better then red, so you put a rat in a green box, a rat in a red box, then you starve the rat in the red box and give a ton of food to the green rat. Then like a "genius self claimed scientist" you claim to prove that this is a valid experiment that proves that green is better then red.

Really. Why don't you go through all 40 counties one by one and explain why it's a flawed experiment that proves nothing?

You've made up your mind without looking at the evidence, as you've already demonstrated your ignorance of history, and somehow think that qualifies you to reject all of it - without having even considered it. You've proved my point rather nicely I think.