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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#301

Post by eperfa »

Nesze wrote: post #117
eperfa wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true that Fidesz, his party, has won 2/3rds of the seats in the Parliament, though they only got 45.2% of the total votes. This victory was in part due to them significantly re-drawing the regions used during the elections to their favour, changing rules for voting from abroad (making it easier to vote from neighbouring regions where most of the people are traditionally their supporters, but more difficult from…

> they only got 45.2% of the total votes Think the figures are somewhat higher: Party/FPTP: 49.27%/47.89% [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Hungarian_parliamentary_e...

Sorry, you are right, I quoted the wrong number.

The point is the same though: due to the nature of the Hungarian voting system, the winner can easily get more mandates than what would follow from the raw results, and this is why it is beneficial to manipulate the voting areas.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#302

Post by egeozcan »

bluthund wrote: post #279
egeozcan wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, to be clear, you studied and "understood" history and came to the conclusion that nationalism is a good thing. How? It's clear that I don't agree with you. I think you must be too isolated from some nice people to be so furious about other people.

We can circle back to the psycho analysis later if you so desire, but I'll be sticking to the topic at hand for the time being. You seem to have made a connection between nationalism and being furious about other people. I respectfully disagree that there is a necessary relationship there. I have no ill will against other people. I would like people who share my culture to govern me, and I would not like people of my…

> I would like people who share my culture to govern me, and I would not like people of my culture governing people of a different culture.

When did this ever happen in history? People diverge all the time, that's how we have so many cultures.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#303

Post by adolph »

pjc50 wrote: post #177
zpeti wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word radicalized is also way overused. Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. But that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate concerns about illegal immigration that Hungarians might have. Just because Western european nations have decided they don't mind if they add 1-2% yearly to their populations of a culturally total…

There's almost seven million displaced Syrians. The real failure is to not have dealt with the Syrian crisis, and now the demand to kick out the refugees, no matter how impractical this is or how lethal it would be to them, is rising.

Pop of Hungary is 10m. What % of Syria can be absorbed by Syria?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#304

Post by boomboomsubban »

tome wrote: post #237
wrnr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets merge all soccer clubs into one, then there will no longer be a need for matches since one club just has all the players they don't even need to be the best. Nationalism is a very recent affair, the idea that people and not just the nobility have nations is a 19 century concept.

> Nationalism is a very recent affair, the idea that people and not just the nobility have nations is a 19 century concept. Is that right? Sounds like the opposite to me. The English King, German Kaiser and Russian Tsar during WWI were cousins. https://www.history.co.uk/articles/the-kaiser-the-tsar-and-k...

Yes. The German Kaiser was the result of the nationalist German speaking people uniting under the Prussian King. Russia had steadfastly rejected the ideas of nationalism and maintained the Tsar had the divine right to rule, and the British royalty was already largely a figurehead for the British "nation."

There can exist nationalist monarchies, just the thing keeping then bound is not that they are the same rulers subjects.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#305

Post by rbanffy »

roenxi wrote: post #105
Hokusai wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU is completely helpless against rouge states There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will mak…

> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how…

> But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily

Brazil experienced 12 years of prosperity from 2003 to 2015, with some trouble starting in 2012, but still with solid numbers in unemployment, for instance. Still a hate-based disinformation campaign managed to overthrow a re-elected president for accusations later proved unfounded, paving the way to the election of a far-right president who is ripping apart the fragile fabric of Brazil's still young democracy.

This is why we need to deal harshly with such hatred/disinfo campaigns, ruthlessly deplatforming fringe elements and denying them the chance to drag the Overton window their way.

In the past century Europe saw the construction of facilities used exclusively to commit murder at an industrial scale, designed to be the cheapest way to kill whole populations.

It's people like Orbán, the Le Pens, Jörg Meuthen, Nigel Farage, among many, many others, that took this continent there and, if we don't act, they'll do it again.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#306

Post by majgr »

hyper_dynamics wrote: post #88
Hokusai wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU is completely helpless against rouge states There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will mak…

They should be expelled, but that's not possible. So the EU is indeed kinda helpless against member states gone rouge

Orban will vote easily against Poland just when he is guaranteed that he gets money from after-COVID fund. Maybe that is why EU are withholding Hungary spend plan for this fund.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#307

Post by _hzrk »

bluthund wrote: post #279
egeozcan wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, to be clear, you studied and "understood" history and came to the conclusion that nationalism is a good thing. How? It's clear that I don't agree with you. I think you must be too isolated from some nice people to be so furious about other people.

We can circle back to the psycho analysis later if you so desire, but I'll be sticking to the topic at hand for the time being. You seem to have made a connection between nationalism and being furious about other people. I respectfully disagree that there is a necessary relationship there. I have no ill will against other people. I would like people who share my culture to govern me, and I would not like people of my…

Globalism is inevitable, you cannot stop it. You should rather get used to it. The fact that you get anxious by ideas penetrating your culture means that globalisation works. It is like my Romanian grandfather telling me how bankers should have been punished in 2008. Which would have never and it will never happen because that's how the world works. The alternatives are far too costly and our global capitalism does not allow it. Get used to it, neighbor.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#308

Post by alkonaut »

rwmj wrote: post #271
alkonaut wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there ever comes a time when AfD creates a board to “review” Supreme Court justices, or moves to remove “foreign influence” on media in Germany and so on - then the same discussion will return there. The difference is that conservative nationalism can’t get that type of foothold in Western Europe and the mistake was to include countries in the EU that even had a risk of having a nationalist majority. We should hav…

> The difference is that conservative nationalism can’t get that type of foothold in Western Europe UK says hi!

By conservative nationalism I mean something that is much further removed from liberal democracy than Nigel Farage or even LePen. It’s not about economic conservatism, closed borders and populism in immigration matters. I mean (extremely) socially conservative.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#309

Post by zajio1am »

hutzlibu wrote: post #277
alkonaut wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there ever comes a time when AfD creates a board to “review” Supreme Court justices, or moves to remove “foreign influence” on media in Germany and so on - then the same discussion will return there. The difference is that conservative nationalism can’t get that type of foothold in Western Europe and the mistake was to include countries in the EU that even had a risk of having a nationalist majority. We should hav…

" The difference is that conservative nationalism can’t get that type of foothold in Western Europe and the mistake was to include countries in the EU that even had a risk of having a nationalist majority" Does spain is included in your non-nationalistic western europe? A state where old fascist are still in charge in justice, police and army? Who cheeringly cracked down on catalonia who dared to organize a referendu…

> Who cheeringly cracked down on catalonia who dared to organize a referendum on independence?

Which would likely be done by every country that respects rule of law and equal rights of its citizens.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#310

Post by jpetso »

bluthund wrote: post #279
egeozcan wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, to be clear, you studied and "understood" history and came to the conclusion that nationalism is a good thing. How? It's clear that I don't agree with you. I think you must be too isolated from some nice people to be so furious about other people.

We can circle back to the psycho analysis later if you so desire, but I'll be sticking to the topic at hand for the time being. You seem to have made a connection between nationalism and being furious about other people. I respectfully disagree that there is a necessary relationship there. I have no ill will against other people. I would like people who share my culture to govern me, and I would not like people of my…

I find that despite my national background, there are tons of people in my country whose ideas and principles I don't share, and lots of people from other countries/cultures that I would team up with anytime.

Drawing a line primarily along cultural lines means ignoring or downplaying all of the other lines that other people might find similarly important or more so.

Why would I bias my decisions about people over other people just because they grew up within a few hundred kilometres of me? Why would I prefer helping a bunch of deadbeats from my own country over a bunch of promising bright people from halfway across the world? Because they'll stand up for me in return?

Because it's always one team against another? Fuck teams. There are my immediate friends, and outside of that I'll fight only for principles, not arbitrary teams. Everyone's a different person in their own right. Everyone deserves to be treated as who they are, not where they're from. (Cue Backstreet Boys.)

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