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Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

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Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#301
There is a huge amount of outrage in this thread but some people actually do things for reasons other than money.

For example, volunteer work is very popular and common and is unpaid. Why are people not outraged about someone volunteering their time. Who cares what their motive is, maybe they feel it’s furthering a cause they believe in but maybe they want to feel needed. Maybe they are bored.

Open source, same thing.

Sure, it’s crass to approach photographers directly and be coy about the lack of pay, but we can’t think that nobody should do anything without being paid to do it.

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#302
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the whole idea of this being work for $0 is incorrect. The "pay" comes in the exposure and authority the photographer will build after doing this. If you're going to hire a wedding photographer, all things being equal, if one says they did the photos for a show that you are familiar with, or appeared in magazines you're familiar with - that is worth a great deal in marketing value. A smart photographer can bu…

> If you're going to hire a wedding photographer, all things being equal, if one says they did the photos for a show that you are familiar with, or appeared in magazines you're familiar with - that is worth a great deal in marketing value. Not really. No one knows wedding photographers by name. The absolutely most famous wedding photographer in the world is .... who? If you’ve gotten a customer far enough in your fun…

Also I wonder if such exposure will have negative effect overall. That is getting timewasters that are not actually interested in your product, but your experience at show.

A appearance on show might make you competitive against someone at similar price when doing head-to-head comparison, but someone who is cheaper cause not offering free opportunities might beat you. I really doubt there is very great up-side.

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#303
post #287
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s bad for other professionals because it creates expectations that people will work for free and it reduces the amount other professionals can earn. That’s why it generates negative reactions and shaming in those communities. In the short term, that’s good for whoever gets a free service. In the long run, it’s not great for sustaining a population with a valuable expertise.

So is it bad for developers to work on open source projects on GitHub in their free time? After all, by that logic doing so reduces the amount that other developers can earn. And should a consultant not be able to maintain a blog that people don't pay for because doing so competes with freelancers?

Working on open source does not create as much of an expectation that you work for free by request on other projects, nor does blogging. We may argue about why this is the case, but it's moot. Analogies are blunt tools that only result in back-and-forths about the differences between the original case and the proposed cases. If you think a tendency for creatives to work for free does not increase the tendency of businesses to request that creatives work for free, then make that argument directly, rather than pointing to something different.

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#304
post #42
post #21

The US continues to support unpaid work in a pretty major way. I think unpaid internships being socially acceptable is one of the roots of this insidious habit. They've been illegal up here in Canada for a while and it hasn't really caused any economic disasters. It'd be a good change to advocate for down there as well. And, honestly, internships aren't free for companies unless there is literally nothing of value be…

>I think unpaid internships being socially acceptable is one of the roots of this insidious habit. When I worked with interns they were all paid... but every one was more time and expense to work with than any value they provided. In weeks they accomplished what I could do in an afternoon, and we spent WAY more than an afternoon of work with them. Amazingly many seemed to have a very high opinion of their productivit…

That's not the point. You pay them because they're working. That's how things work in civilised countries.

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#305
post #21

The US continues to support unpaid work in a pretty major way. I think unpaid internships being socially acceptable is one of the roots of this insidious habit. They've been illegal up here in Canada for a while and it hasn't really caused any economic disasters. It'd be a good change to advocate for down there as well. And, honestly, internships aren't free for companies unless there is literally nothing of value be…

> The US continues to support unpaid work in a pretty major way. One of the founding pillars of the United States was the support of "unpaid work in a pretty major way".

That was...not a founding pillar of the United States.

It's fairly well documented that the Founding Fathers were pretty much all opposed to slavery, but saw it as a huge political shit sandwich that would jeopardize Federalization. The United States is one of the only unions on the planet in which every single member state (without exception) voluntarily ratified and agreed to join. Had the Founding Fathers pushed for abolition, the South would never have joined the Union, and slavery may not have been abolished in the 1860s.

In order to ensure Federalization, the Founders simply ignored the question of slavery to get the slave-states to join the Union, and in fact built systems in place to incentivize the abolition of slavery. The Three-Fifths Compromise was a good example of this: the South outnumbered the North (when counting the slaves), and the South wanted slaves to be counted as one whole person in the census so that they would have outsized representation in the apportionment of seats in the House of Representatives. This was obviously unfair since those slaves were unfree and basically would have given rich slaveholders multiple votes. The Three-Fifths Compromise was a proposal by the abolitionist North to 1) neuter the power of the South at the Federal level, and 2) worded in such a way ("non-free persons") that if a Southern slave state wanted more House seats at the Federal level, all they had to do was abolish slavery.

A really good way to understand how the Founders felt about slavery is to look at how those that literally advocated for starting a new nation based fundamentally on the institution of slavery (the Confederates) felt about the Founding Fathers. The Cornerstone Speech was an address given by the Vice President of the CSA just before the Civil War began, and includes commentary around how they felt about the “old Constitution” and its framers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech#Cornerstone

The relevant bit:

“The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution, African slavery as it exists amongst us – the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the “storm came and the wind blew.””

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think this is cut and dry, and instead depends on the nature of the relationship. To buy a laptop, Netflix didn’t have board meetings, deep contract negotiations involving the executives of both businesses, or an ongoing relationship. The laptop is effectively a commodity, and any injustice Apple commits is amortized over many million laptop owners who tacitly but minorly endorsed that injustice. Netflix buyi…

Netflix isn't the only buyer though. They make the show and sell it to whichever studio compensates them the best. And then sometimes sell it to a different studio in a different country. Show purchases don't go past the board. They don't even always go past the CEO. It's really more akin to buying enterprise software. So sure, change the metaphor to Oracle database. You don't complain about Oracle's customers where…

You could also compare it to buying something from a terrorist, or hiring an assassin.

When it's something we care about, we definitely blame the customers too.

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are giving up their labor and should be compensated accordingly. If they were at college completing courses, they'd be giving up their labor towards that. If you consider an internship an educational opportunity, then the argument that they should be paid holds no water (since they don't get paid for college work, instead they pay for the experience). Obviously, not all internships are _really_ educational opp…

Your college analogy doesn't make sense. Students are the "customers" of the college, not the workers. Or, to put it another way, they're paying for their professors' labor.

My point was that, just because they're doing work as an intern, that doesn't mean they are doing work they should necessarily get paid for. Both college and an internship are situations where

- the junior individual (intern, student) is doing work

- the junior individual expects to learn during the experience

- the senior entity (college, company) is expected to put effort into making sure the junior has learning opportunities

- the senior entity can expect the junior person to contribute less productivity to the company than a full employee

Now, how similar/dis-similar they are depends heavily on how much the internship focuses on the learning experience and how much the intern adds to the company.

But to say that the intern is definitely contributing more than they are gain is factually incorrect. And

> They are giving up their labor and should be compensated accordingly.

The thing is, "accordingly" is open to interpretation and, in some cases where the intern is getting a lot more than they give, it's reasonable to argue that it is "not at all".

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#309
post #223
post #10

There is a Twitter account dedicated to people that try to abuse the exposure thing. As you might expect, the most stories are from USA https://twitter.com/forexposure_txt

I love the assumption that exposure has zero value. Usually from people who have only ever taken a paycheck from someone else. Exposure has value. Otherwise these kinds of things wouldn’t exist. If you don’t agree, don’t do the gig. Pretty simple. But no! That’s not enough! Those other people are expressing wrongthing and must be corrected . Ugh - bunch of freaking busybodies. At least in the days before pervasive co…

You sound like somebody who got exposed for trying to pay people with exposure.

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#310
We ought to establish norms that discredit this kind of nonsense. Those of us who could afford to take on this kind of unpaid work for exposure ought to object sternly and without any particular regard for professional decorum (just like the author) when these sort of offers come by, because the other side has already thrown all of that out.

Always treat an "offer" for work without pay like the insult it is.

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