On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#301

Post by electrondood » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:38 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #250

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

> This is basically a red flag for any relationship. This is a very odd western view of things. None of my Bangladeshi aunts would find it at all controversial if a young man said he was sad because he was chronically unable to find a relationship. Humans are supposed to be in intimate relationships of some sort, for the purposes of making children. Friends and hobbies aren’t a replacement. I find the ease with which…

I think the criticism was that the post's author expressed being deeply unhappy with himself to begin with, and the relationship was more like a bandaid that only covered up the underlying personal issues.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#302

Post by krastanov » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:38 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #258

michaelpb wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this line of thought is that some of the "crazies at the edge" in the past are the sensible, moderate ideas that you no doubt hold right now. For example, viewing slavery as an evil institution was considered the "crazies at the edge" opinion in the early-mid 1800s in the US, as opposed to the dominant opinion among "sensible" abolitionists that slavery was personal sin that requires a redemption pro…

Both you and parent are right, but you have to acknowledge that extremists and totalitarians do exist.

"you have to acknowledge that extremists and totalitarians do exist" is a cheap rhetorical device to sneak in "both sides are the same" fallacies. Yes, of course there are crazies in any political movement, demographic, subculture, or other group. Elevating these crazies to the first thing mentioned when discussing the actual substance of the beliefs of a group is silly at best, but more frequently it is simply a dishonest distraction. This is not a slippery slope (also typically a fallacy in practice).

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#303

Post by Nursie » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:38 PM UTC

ratww wrote: post #157

Nursie wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah man I don't think I would classify a committed relationship where partners end up missing their partner when they're gone as "codependent". > I spent every day without her more or less miserable This is a bit more than "missing" them.

This phrase is kinda ambiguous. I still don't understand if by that sentence the article author means he was miserable before, or if this means he misses her after just one day of her being away. "Spent" is in the past, so I assumed it's the former. I have the impression that people are talking about different things in some replies.

> I still don't understand if by that sentence the article author means he was miserable before, or if this means he misses her after just one day of her being away.

Honestly to me it's not important, if it's either of those things, if it's misery every day without someone that's pretty extreme. IMHO, YMMV etc. Glad he's happy, but that's a lot to put on a partner.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#304

Post by cblconfederate » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:39 PM UTC

Supermancho wrote: post #28

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

> This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy in life is their partner then something is wrong When you get older, a partner (or children) are important to keep you going. Your body will fail you. Your mind will fail you. Your life will end and (statistically) it will be a long downward slope. Binding yourself to the right person keeps that slope more e…

So it seems like old age is the right time to start relationships, as almost everyone will be a lot more willing to start one, and exclusivity will be valued a lot more for practical reasons

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#305

Post by widougher » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:39 PM UTC

openasocket wrote: post #262

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about second study or what flaws they had, but that definitely is possible if: A) the men in the study are having "side chicks" i.e. in sexual relationship with multiple women at the same time. B) women are more selective with whom they sleep with i.e. they rather not have sex than have sex with a "loser". It only doesn't make sense if everyone are in monogameous relationships and everyone has sex as oft…

So your explanations for why men might have more sexual relationships than women on average is flawed, none of those reasons would change the averages. Imagine if you had 5 men and 5 women, where 1 man had a sexual relationship with all 5 women and the other 4 men had no sexual relationships. The average number of sexual relationships for women would be 1, because each has a sexual relationship with the one man. The…

The question was who is single, not how many partners.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#306

Post by pengaru » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:39 PM UTC

Isn't it kind of obvious that young single men are competing with nearly all adult men for the young women?

Esp. with the rising divorce rates, more non-young men are going back on the market than previously, and they've got more financial stability and general security to offer than most their younger competitors. I'm betting they're not exactly chomping at the bit to shack up with women their age or older.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#307

Post by textgel » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:39 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #242

textgel wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You believe in quotas, you believe in equality of outcome. In fact I could be inclined to agree with you in some ways; its more accurate to state that progressives don't believe in equality of outcome in much the same way as they don't really hold any disdain for racism/sexism or any of the other causes that claim to champion but they like the power that comes from doing so. For example no progressive has any issues…

Those are a lot of absolute statements you're making, and I just don't understand. There is so much wrong with your argument. You're attributing motive and action to someone else, with zero proof, in my opinion. >You believe in quotas, you believe in equality of outcome. Who is 'you' here? Who said they believe in quotas? >they like the power that comes from doing so. Again, who is this mysterious strawman you're bui…

If you would follow a couple steps up the comment chain you'll note that the discussion centred around progressive ideology; you're welcome to re-read the chain and respond again once you have familiarised yourself with the context.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#308

Post by ff317 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

openasocket wrote: post #148

> if 51% of young men are single and only 31% of women in the same age bracket are, that implies something is up So that statistic really confuses me, how could that be the case? The data seems to imply a significant number of women are dating men far older than themselves, which just doesn't seem true to me. I'm wondering if that is a sampling error or different genders are interpreting the question differently. It…

> It kind of reminds me of a study I heard about a few years back claiming that straight men average three times as many sexual partners as straight women. Except, that isn't possible!

It really depends on whether they were reporting the "mean" or the "median". It's entirely possible for the median values for the two sexes to differ greatly while the mean values are comparable, which would imply that each group had a very different shape to the curve of their data.

One of many example hypothetical sets of shapes that would fit the data would be one where a graph of the males shows a fairly "normal" distribution with the mean and median having similar values, but the female graph was more of an exponential curve, where a small percentage at the top had tons of partners, and the rest of the women drop off the curve fairly quickly, resulting in a much lower median value than the men, but still the same mean value.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#309

Post by colanderman » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #288

schnevets wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am frequently surprised by the number of "dead bedrooms" I know about among friends, and I sincerely believe the problem is the western world's secretly coy perception of sex. There is a superficial surface level that is extremely wrong (for example, Successful people have sex, the most successful people have the hottest sex with the hottest partners; Sex isn't about planning it's about letting the desire overcome…

> I am frequently surprised by the number of "dead bedrooms" I know about among friends I originally thought they were mostly an old people thing, but I am hearing more stories about it from friends. And we are mid 20s.

Yep same here (mid 20s-30s). I guess it shouldn't really be too surprising; young people often don't know what they really need and/or are capable of providing before diving headlong into an exclusive relationship.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#310

Post by silicon2401 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

landryraccoon wrote: post #147

scarmig wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having a romantic and sexual relationship is not a requirement for a happy life. This is a bit silly: either it's trivially true but irrelevant, if the claim is that there exist people who can live happy lives without (sexual) relationships; or it's flatly false, if the claim is that everyone can be equally happy without relationships as they would be with them. Relationships bring significant happiness. People who…

Man this thread sure must be depressing if you're single. Single? That's your problem, that your single. Go get a relationship and be happy! Way to dogpile on people when they're down. I say enjoy being single. If a relationship happens, good for you, but don't listen to people that say you're damaged / worse off / going down the drain because you're single. They're just jealous you can travel and play video games wh…

> Way to dogpile on people when they're down.

> They're just jealous you can travel and play video games whenever you want. =)

This comment comes off defensive and hypocritical to me, rather than contributing to the conversation. You're basically saying we shouldn't talk about good things if some people don't have those good things; and also screw people with good things because they're actually jealous of the have-nots

I think life is incomparably better with a partner. It's not a question and it's not even close: there's nothing I miss about being single and almost every single thing about my life today is better because I'm in a relationship than if I weren't. It's cheaper, I have someone to share the good times with, I have someone to support me in my bad times, I have a teammate for life's plans and adventures, and I never feel lonely. I can also travel and play video games whenever I want; in fact my partner often buys me videogames and I often buy her things for her to enjoy on her own.

That's not dogpiling on anyone. It's not my fault if someone's single, and it may or may not be true that being in a (good) relationship would make them happier. It definitely makes me happier, and statistically it's a massive boost to quality of life for the vast majority of people. It's not fun to think that someone's worse off, but changing what you say doesn't change reality. This is meant to be a place where people can discuss ideas and concepts, and not talking about the benefits of relationships doesn't make them any less real.