It's more accurate to say that "JVM is Underhyped". I think more people will agree with that.
Java Is Underhyped
301–310 of 808 posts
Re: Java Is Underhyped
#302Earlier quoted context omitted.
Python code which uses stuff mostly from the standard libraries isn't really that slow. Parsing a JSON? Call a wrapped C function. Process a media file? Call a wrapped C function. If you keep the actual CPU-intensive stuff in C code, the ops executed by the Python interpreter can be negligent.
That Python's performance doesn't matter because you can write things in C instead is faint praise indeed.
You don't need to write it. The ecosystem is already chock full of compiled extensions. That's kinda the point.
Re: Java Is Underhyped
#303For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…
I have the exact same criticism about Python.
Well, that's the point of opinion isn't it ?
Re: Java Is Underhyped
#304Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, believe it or not, VBA is doing to have to do with Python competition in Excel in a not so distant future: https://excel.uservoice.com/forums/304921-excel-for-windows-...
> While we don’t have specific plans to announce at this time, we have been researching the topic, conducting customer interviews, and are working with the Python team at Microsoft so we can build a plan that we think can address the scenarios you told us about and ensure it can run wherever Excel runs. Any long time developer on MS stack knows that actually means "thank you very much but no".
They just hired Guido, the father of Python, at Microsoft.
So, I would not be so sure.
Re: Java Is Underhyped
#305I have programmed in Python, Ruby, JS, C, Go and Java. The main reason Java receives so much flak is because it's setup is not beginner friendly. JS, Python, Ruby make it so much easier to just write a program and run it. Naturally, any novice programmer would quit Java in the setup process itself. It's not easy in Java to just write a program and run it instantly. But once you are through that painful process, there…
I vividly remember writing my first few Java programs. It was the most ridiculous thing to get it to run. JRE can't find the program when both the source and class files are right there in the directory where you are trying to run the program from. You have to set the classpath first else it won't ever find your program. A beginner would be definitely frustrated. I was. I earn my livelihood writing Java code but I have recommended Python to both my brother and son who are just getting into programming.
Re: Java Is Underhyped
#306Earlier quoted context omitted.
I write software in Java. I can't stand python - too wishy-washy. But my main complaint about Python is trying to use someone else's software. Then it degenerates into a maze of twisty little passages of trying to install the correct set of dependencies, not knowing where those files are installed (which makes it difficult on a cluster, as you may need to do the install on every node separately). Then you try using p…
Java is so much worse on this front. > with Java, you just dump the necessary jars into a directory, include them in the classpath, and it works. Ant, maven, or gradle, and then some jars, somewhere? What's the classpath and whats $JAVA_HOME for this project? Oh and now I have to make it work in the IDE too, click through a billion menus and dialogs, sync the build system, sync the dependencies, configure runtimes an…
Well, this could be true for some legacy projects with old tooling, but this is not how things work today.
You install the IDE, checkout the code from Git and let IDE get a proper version of JDK for you and fetch dependencies from Maven central to local repo. You really should not copy jars anywhere or set environment variables.
Re: Java Is Underhyped
#307> Java is fun to write, productive What the hell? I don't think we have the same definition for any of these words. I know Java has changed quite a bit since Java 8 (Java 9 being the last version I used professionally before switching completely to Go), but I just can't write Java again, it's physical. When I want to try a new Java feature and think about writing the scaffolding code, my stomach actually hurts. Not t…
You just described how I feel about C++
I used to be a C++ wizard. I did things with that language that were just unspeakable. I used features so obscure that I don't even know if they have an official name.
Then after I dunno... the five hundredth nonsensical linker error, something in me just snapped and I just can't ever go back there.
Re: Java Is Underhyped
#308Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You know the joke: a dev has a problem, uses Java, and now has a ProblemFactory :) I LOL’d at this joke (again) because it’s true, but if we’re honest, it’s also unfair. ProblemFactory is a bad idiom, rather than anything to do with Java The Language. You could (and IMO, probably should) just use a new Problem(). Java The Language was very stable for a very long time, so IMO the hype and fads got built on top. Firs…
Yeah I was teasing a bit. Same goes for Python. Reading the hacky code of a geographer for his SIG system is rarely a fun day.
Yeah - look it’s a really valid criticism about idiomatic Java, and is one of a (fairly small) number of reasons I prefer Go these days. I ended up writing a heap of non idiomatic Java and enjoyed it immensely. But you do get a bit tired of going against the grain.
Re: Java Is Underhyped
#309I haven't been coding as long as most (about 10 years) but I've had phases of Java, Ruby, Python, JS, TS, ObjC, etc. If I go onto my GitHub and try to get any of my old projects running I am extremely confident that the non-Android Java ones will still work. All of the other ones will probably have "rotted" over the years and send me down a day-long rabbit hole looking for old dependencies or build systems. There's s…
This, so much this. The value of code just working and staying working is humongous. Having code that is unchanged from Java 1.3 doing it's thing and delivering value 21 years later without needing to be touched and revisited allows us to focus on improving the code that needs to be improved. Doesn't mean we don't touch old code (change idioms, generic safe, build process etc). It means we do it when there is value t…
> C++ chances that I can compile code from 2000 without issues is minuscule.
Really? I have code from the late 90ies and it compiles just fine. Do you perhaps mean dependencies? Because the issue there is the completeness of the framework and libraries around Java rather than the language itself.
Re: Java Is Underhyped
#310For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…
There's a lot of very reliable distributed systems written in java. But if something goes wrong, and it will, because distributed systems, you will not want to debug it. And because java is very enterprisey, distributed java developers are expensive. You're competing with faang salaries.
There are ways to deal with this problem. Debugging of microservices can be efficient and you don't have to hire the entire team of experts.