Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

301–310 of 363 posts

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#301

Post by globular-toast »

Interesting to read this as from my British point of view, I thought the opposite was true: songwriters took the lion's share while musicians got relatively little.

Thinking about The Beatles, for example, Paul McCartney is way richer than Ringo Starr. The common wisdom is it's because he wrote the songs and Ringo was just the drummer.

Also there's the example of the song "Bitter Sweet Symphony" where members of the Rolling Stones claimed songwriting credits and took all the song's royalties [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitter_Sweet_Symphony

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#302

Post by farfacy »

hashkb wrote: post #46
HiroshiSan wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a huge fan of blackpink I highly recommend you check out the documentary they have on Netflix. It became obvious after watching it that the genius behind blackpink is Teddy Park, who was also behind another massively successful girl group 2NE1. I've thought about it slightly and without Teddy Park there is no blackpink, but without the individual members each bringing their own flavour to the group, there is no bl…

With these types of "manufactured" performance groups I don't think there's any question that they are not composers. The Lady Gaga case (she promotes herself as a composer / guitarist / pianist) is much more of an intentional mislead, in my opinion.

Why isn't there a question about manufactured performance groups not being composers? There are manufactured performance groups that are composers and they look just like Blackpink. An example of such a group is GI-DLE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I66oFXdf0KU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3szNvgQxHo

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#303

Post by wombatmobile »

dctoedt wrote: post #286
wombatmobile wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am confused by the story: isn't the person who made the big bucks here a person who "mainly does songwriting"? The law says the songwriter is entitled to songwriting royalties. In practice, famous artists' managers negotiate with poor unknown songwriters to take a percentage of the songwriters royalty by pretending that the artist co-wrote or wholly wrote the song. This is made possible by supply and demand, and…

> famous artists' managers negotiate with poor unknown songwriters to take a percentage of the songwriters royalty by pretending that the artist co-wrote or wholly wrote the song. That might not be strictly necessary, because in the U.S., there's such a thing as a performer's copyright in the (recorded) performance itself, separate from the songwriter's copyright in the song. [0] [0] https://www.ip-watch.org/2014/11/…

That's a different issue occurring downstream from the contractual arrangement for the songwriting credits.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#304

Post by Balgair »

0_____0 wrote: post #180
harrisonjackson wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they mean "Katy Perry" and "Ariana Grande" are fictional characters as the public knows them. They are characters played by two artists and supported by media/storytelling.

This reminds me a bit of what I've heard about pro wrestling. There's a bit more story and theater to pro wrestling, but a lot of times the characters' personality derives from the person 'playing' them, with the knob turned to 12.

For others wondering about this style of entertainment, it's called 'kayfabe'

"Kayfabe, in the United States, is often seen as the suspension of disbelief that is used to create the non-wrestling aspects of promotions, such as feuds, angles, and gimmicks in a manner similar to other forms of fictional entertainment. In relative terms, a wrestler breaking kayfabe during a show would be likened to an actor breaking character on-camera."

Outside of the entertainment industry, politics is an obvious example, though wikipedia states:

"It has long been claimed that kayfabe has been used in American politics, especially in election campaigns, Congress, and the White House, but no evidence of actual usage of kayfabe in Washington has ever been uncovered. In interviews as Governor of Minnesota, former wrestler Jesse Ventura often likened Washington to wrestling when he said that politicians "pretend to hate each other in public, then go out to dinner together.""

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayfabe

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#305

Post by Kaze404 »

Rule35 wrote: post #233
Kaze404 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be proud even if it wasn't a massive hit. It's an insanely catchy song, performed by two women who deliver the lines perfectly, on top of a very creative production (I especially like the repetitive "there's some hoes in this house" line that plays throughout the entire song). I don't think it's fair to the people involved to paint it something it's not just because the sexual language makes you uncomfortable.

fwiw, it's not the sexual imagery that bothers most people, it's the degradation they hear in the rest of the song. "Hoes in this house" for example. Sex is natural, calling women whores is not. One is a fine thing for a kid to see, the other is problematic and requires you to explain that their language shouldn't be repeated, that it's probably indicative of depression or systematic oppression of women, etc. Nothing…

That's completely fair criticism in my opinion, but not the one I see invoked by most people. In my experience, most of the time the sexual language is the problem, and that is completely bonkers to me because, as you said, sex is a big part of human life and it makes sense for it to be reflected in art.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#306

Post by dsr_ »

rgifford wrote: post #175

A friend of mine decided to pursue music production around the same time I started in software engineering. We're both 20 somethings. We swap war stories now and then. I get to hear about how he's working with his mentor to do vocal production on a track getting pitched for Maroon 5, The Chainsmokers, etc. Sometimes the tracks take -- the artist likes them and decides to move forward. Usually they don't and it's a lo…

Find some episodes of The Muppet Show. Late 1970s, with a entertainment-related guest on each episode.

Sometimes the guest is an actor or actress, and they're very nice looking.

Sometimes the guest is a musician... and they look funny to modern eyes. Then they pull out their instrument or open their mouth, and you can hear the same (or better) quality as today's musicians.

The Muppet Show ended in 1981. MTV launched in 1981.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#307

Post by Varriount »

vmception wrote: post #275
Varriount wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it's naive of me, but I can't help but look down on this kind of behavior. I know that tax money is rarely spent in the most efficient way possible, but (ideally) the point of taxes is that they go to benefit the general public. Moving just so one doesn't have to pay as much, after (presumably) living in the state for some time feels selfish and greedy.

If you've ever driven to a different county to get cheaper gas, or chose a house in a certain municipality to get a lower property tax, or purchased nearby for a lower sales tax, or didn't compute it yourself to send to your state after an online purchase, it's the exact same thing. This has been reinforced by the Supreme Court who could find no distinction between any socioeconomic class optimizing their tax burden,…

> Any state? Any due process outcome? Any percentage?

My original comment does not state my opinions on these parameters of the taxation process. I was commenting on how I felt the act of moving to a new state, just to get out of paying taxes in the state you currently live in (and earned that money in), is, in general, immoral. I could have spent several paragraphs going over every possible exception to this viewpoint, and hedge every assertion with "in general", "except when", etc., but that tends to be tedious to both read and write.

> Would you consider to read the state's law to discover that you are not subjected to the payment in many circumstances that you can create?

> Which this logic its not about imagining that you are passively paying for roads and schools

Could you restate these sentences? I can't quite understand them.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#308

Post by toss1 »

vasco wrote: post #222
toss1 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>That's akin to saying that I took inspiration from the Harry Potter books, so I should give JK Rowling a cut of my book deal. Yup, just to be clear in that case, if you are writing about the characters JKR created, with their attributes, personas, and/or backstories, you are fully expected to license the characters and pay royalties to JKR. You are specifically utilizing her copyrighted works for profit, even if yo…

Mickey mouse went to the store. On the way there he slipped on a banana peel and fell. No royalty paid.

Wow, what an unexpectedly inane and ignorant comment on HN.

That is like saying: "I just drove by a cop at 3mph over the speed limit and he didn't even turn on his lights. No fine paid." (implying that therefore speed limit laws don't exist)

The fact that many trivial violations go un-prosecuted never invalidates the law.

Here's a key line just a few paragraphs into a Georgetown Law paper on the topic [1] >>Many entertainment corporation shave left fan fiction alone, but a few have attempted and are attempting to stamp out unauthorized use of their proprietary characters.

It is very common. Your trivial "example" may come under fair use, but that says nothing about the actual facts of the matter.

[1] https://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a...

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#309

Post by TheMagicHorsey »

This demand ignores the economics of songwriting.

The thing in short supply is not catchy tunes and beautiful lyrics. The thing in short supply is the attention of an audience in a world full of distractions. A popstar brings you attention. You bring them the hit song. You will get a smaller share of a huge pie in return.

If you wish, you can take a 100% share of a tiny pie and keep your artistic author's integrity.

That's the tradeoff.

Re: Hit songwriters ask pop stars to stop taking credit for songs they didn't write

#310

Post by olivermarks »

dsr_ wrote: post #306
rgifford wrote: post #175

A friend of mine decided to pursue music production around the same time I started in software engineering. We're both 20 somethings. We swap war stories now and then. I get to hear about how he's working with his mentor to do vocal production on a track getting pitched for Maroon 5, The Chainsmokers, etc. Sometimes the tracks take -- the artist likes them and decides to move forward. Usually they don't and it's a lo…

Find some episodes of The Muppet Show. Late 1970s, with a entertainment-related guest on each episode. Sometimes the guest is an actor or actress, and they're very nice looking. Sometimes the guest is a musician... and they look funny to modern eyes. Then they pull out their instrument or open their mouth, and you can hear the same (or better) quality as today's musicians. The Muppet Show ended in 1981. MTV launched…

@DSR_ I used to be in the music world last century. Even then there was show business (visual appeal, dancing etc) and there was musicians (people who can play and/or sing really well).

This is very accentuated today, with a tremendous amount of effort put in by artists to be visually appealing/charismatic on instagram etc, which has replaced the top 20 chart position marketing trick.

There is little to no time to create music, the emphasis is very much on sound bites and visual marketing...

Post reply on HN