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Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

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Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#301

Post by jodrellblank »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #284
jodrellblank wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple devices aren't crippled by it, they're improved by it. By curation and restriction. Users don't buy Apple gear to pay the lowest possible price for software, or to sideload software, users buy Apple to get something that works. The whole point is that Apple is selling an Apple experience, not an overwhelming flood of "fix it yourself" freeware. Users who want that can get it elsewhere, they shouldn't be forced…

>"You want access to their customers" Last time i checked, corporations were not allowed to own people, has that changed? >"So you're going after Bosch for anti-competitively not allowing you to sell software that runs on their washing machines, and not allowing owners to sideload?" You are not helping your case by making these daft comparisons.

Perhaps referring to people who buy and use X's products and services as "X's customers" is unfamiliar to you, but it's in very common usage, and conveys no element of ownership:

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22apple%27s%20custome...

> "You are not helping your case by making these daft comparisons."

The person I was originally replying to is the one who brought up washing machines as having general purpose computers inside them. It's not my comparison, it's me using their comparison to make a point. The point being, that because Alice bought a device that contains a microchip, doesn't entitle you to be allowed to sell software that runs on that microchip, and worsen her experience to do that. Like if Alice chooses to live in a gated community and pays someone to filter her mail, it would be obviously unreasonable to say "I object to gates, I should be allowed to post my fliers through her mailbox for free", as if that's your decision to make, not hers.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#302

Post by Lio »

wmichelin wrote: post #115
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #4

" Modern cars regularly send basic data about vehicle components, their safety status and service schedules to car manufacturers, and mobile phones work in very similar ways." -Google This is a beautiful quote because it is an example of one industry's bad behavior leading to another industry's bad behavior, upon which the first industry then users the second's similarity to justify themselves. Cars only started doin…

I disagree that telemetry is inherently bad. As product engineers, telemetry is often our only visibility into whether or not a system is functioning healthily. How else can you detect difficult-to-spot bugs in production?

For me, the point is really about control.

These companies know people don’t actively want to be surveilled which is why they sneak this shit in instead of being upfront about it.

If it was so great for consumers it would be an opt in not an opt out hidden behind a series of dark patterns.

Even Apple switches Siri back on after every OS upgrade.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#303

Post by heavyset_go »

mcphage wrote: post #258
heavyset_go wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could walk into Best Buy and buy the game I want off the shelf. I have no such option if I want to buy an iOS app from a store or the developers themselves. Steam also don't engage in anti-competitive behavior and prevent billions of people from using alternative game distribution methods like Apple does. What we need is real competition in the mobile app distribution market to determine whether or not that 30% is…

> I could walk into Best Buy and buy the game I want off the shelf. I have no such option if I want to buy an iOS app from a store or the developers themselves. What percentage of that transaction do you think Best Buy would take?

Doesn't really matter to me when I can just go to another store, or on eBay or Facebook and buy it second-hand, or buy it directly from the developer.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#304

Post by martimarkov »

clairity wrote: post #297
tchalla wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in short, make markets fair (not just 'free'). I'm all for it. What's your concrete proposal to change in the current law for digital store distribution "tax"?

you don't necessarily need new laws, just executive will to allocate earnest resources (diverted from, say, useless programs like the tsa or military boondoggle projects) put toward robustly promoting competitive markets. for instance, make platforms like apple allow other app stores equal footing on their platform. then they would have to compete on price and features to get the best apps to be on their app store ra…

Yea you can force them to have multiple markets on the phone but that doesn’t mean that they won’t be colluding again. Apple and Google can have their stores on both iOS and Android and still keep 30%.

Also this would mean that you are killing off a feature to the end user (me in this case) where I actually like the walled garden as I don’t need to check and verify apps I download.

I understand where you are coming from but if I bought an iOS device (for my parents) I want them to not have a way to install other apps. For me that’s a feature. I don’t want there to be a way to enable anything that allows them to side load or use a different store. This is me as a consumer.

As a developer I see it like this: my (potential) customers decided to use Apple for a reason. I have to respect their decision. If that means I make 30% less than I can try and convince them to use Android and side load but I should respect their choice. Would I like the 30% off for myself - sure.

I think a big part of the discussion misses the reason ppl have chosen iOS and the arguments come from only one side.

If we can get to a position that makes sure that you keep you current state (gatekeeper + trust in iOS App Store + can’t get scammed with malware apps) but allows the option to distribute outside of that would be ideal but I’m too stupid to think of it :D

I just don’t want to kill off a feature I paid a huge amount of money (iOS devices for every close family member) to have and I feel that should be respected. :)

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#305

Post by tehwebguy »

MobileVet wrote: post #260
harry8 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The 30% cut was considered very good at the time." Let me fix this. There was a full range of views. Some considered the 30% cut to be good at the time, some didn't consider it much at all, some considered it to be a criminal abuse of market power. I remember commenting myself that microsoft would be crucified for attempting to tax everyone who wanted to write software for windows 30% of revenue. I don't recall anyo…

I have worked in mobile since 2004. How anyone felt about it is irrelevant. The fact is that 30% was far less than the carriers and Qualcomm were taking with their stores.

Hoping someone will chime in and share ringtone royalty rates back when they were selling by the millions. I’d bet labels got under 50% and artists got basically nothing.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#306

Post by martimarkov »

minsc__and__boo wrote: post #300
jstanley wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Car computers report telemetry to mechanics Yes -- and they shouldn't.

Yes, they should. It assists with repairs, increases safety, leads to recalls, and in cars with GPS units, even reports road emergencies and saves lives . You can feel uncomfortable that this is happening, which is an entirely okay opinion to have, but when it comes to forcing that opinions on others, please don't. Imagine if we were debating the qualities of buttons because the Amish were uncomfortable using them.

Sure but Amish have the right to choose to use the button or not. You should have the option to opt-out.

Or at least have that option until society says “well given how many life’s are save we need to collect this data from everyone”. But you’d get a say in that conversation as well.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#307

Post by Causality1 »

It's all the little needling ways that get to me. For example, Google Maps works fine with GPS. However, if you drag the map view so it isn't centered on you and tap the "center" button, you get a pop-up begging you to let Google scan for access points even when your wifi is turned off. Hit no and hit the center button again and it works normally.

Fucking why, Google? It's irrelevant to the function I'm trying to use. Not only that but you already have my answer, which is no. Maybe I don't want to be your personal 24/7 wardriver. Maybe I don't want you running my battery down for no reason. Maybe I'm somewhere I'm not allowed to emit 2.4GHz signals and your scanning could get me in trouble with my job or even the law.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#308

Post by clairity »

martimarkov wrote: post #304
clairity wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you don't necessarily need new laws, just executive will to allocate earnest resources (diverted from, say, useless programs like the tsa or military boondoggle projects) put toward robustly promoting competitive markets. for instance, make platforms like apple allow other app stores equal footing on their platform. then they would have to compete on price and features to get the best apps to be on their app store ra…

Yea you can force them to have multiple markets on the phone but that doesn’t mean that they won’t be colluding again. Apple and Google can have their stores on both iOS and Android and still keep 30%. Also this would mean that you are killing off a feature to the end user (me in this case) where I actually like the walled garden as I don’t need to check and verify apps I download. I understand where you are coming f…

you'd still have the apple ios store so you wouldn't lose any of that walled garden if you prefer it.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#309

Post by sellyme »

girvo wrote: post #279
sellyme wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that users would all be side loading apps and developers would be making far more money having their apps spread across 5+ different stores that would compete down to lower prices is delusional. If that were the case, why has this not happened on Windows or MacOS where side loading is actually the default yet Steam, GOG, etc still charge 30%? That has happened. The majority of my 20,000 Steam games were ac…

For you. You don’t speak for the rest of the market though, and Steam comfortable holds its lead for good reason.

> You don’t speak for the rest of the market though

Do you?

> Steam comfortable holds its lead for good reason

Yes. One of those good reasons is that it allows people to purchase Steam games without buying them on Steam, thus avoiding having to subsidise Valve's 30% cut.

There's an absolutely gigantic ecosystem around buying Steam games from first-party (developer) and third-party (marketplace/bundle) sellers. I don't think you realise that it's a perfect example against the point you're making. There's enough competition from the ability to "side-load" games into Steam that it's very common to get some of the greatest games ever made for under a dollar, when their MSRP is up to two orders of magnitude higher.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#310

Post by [deleted] »

fapjacks wrote: post #99
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an Ultra Wideband radio in the iPhone 11 and newer that isn't legal to use in all countries. Apple uses a location request sometimes just to determine if the device can legally run that radio or not.

It's nice of you to accept Apple's calling it "radio" but UWB is radar technology. Newer iPhones have radar built into them to make their location tracking more precise. Most people don't understand (or can't understand) the details, which is why the semantic load of calling UWB "radar" instead of "radio" is important for conveying its intended purpose.

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