Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates • Hacker News Board

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#301

Post by cynoclast » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

brundolf wrote: post #297

tantalor wrote: post #6

This isn't a "bug". The problem is the software was not designed to do this and needs to be updated to support a change in requirements Bugs are when software does something it isn't supposed to, or doesn't do something it is supposed to. In this case, it's doing exactly what it was intended to do when it was implemented and put into service. Since then things have changed, so the vendor needs to implement the featur…

I posted under another comment, but this to me is a software-literacy problem. You shouldn't have to hire an engineer to fix or adjust business rules in 2021. Period. The people who know the domain should be able to maintain (and really, create) any automation of that domain themselves. This is partly a failure of education, partly a failure of organizational structuring, and partly a failure of software accessibilit…

>The people who know the domain should be able to maintain (and really, create) any automation of that domain themselves.

This is a recipe for disaster 100% of the time. One needs to know both the domain and software to change software in the domain. People who 'know the domain' but not software, when given the tools to modify software within the domain inevitably create an unmaintainable rats nest of more difficult to change rules, almost invariably in some proprietary WYSYWIG tool that creates more problems than it solves.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#302

Post by mysterydip » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #243

whack wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The following is very illuminating: > Instead of fixing the bug, department sources said employees are attempting to identify qualifying inmates manually... But sources say the department isn’t even scratching the surface of the entire number of eligible inmates. “The only prisoners that are getting into programming are the squeaky wheels,” a source said, “the ones who already know they qualify or people who have fam…

> Comments like yours seem to glorify a pre-software world filled with manual entry. The reality is that manual entry is even more error-prone, bias-prone, with more people falling through the cracks. I think that the pre-software world was quite bias-prone and extremely expensive for large processing jobs like this. The question is how this system was allowed to transition from the expensive manually managed system…

Probably like most government purchases, lowest bidder wins as long as they show on paper that they can do the job. Whether they execute on that is another matter, and some times the subpar work is accepted because of contract issues, sunk cost fallacy, politics/reputations, or schedule.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#303

Post by tmsh » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

Despite this outrage, what makes this country a sustainable country is it is a country based on the rule of law.

There should be a class action lawsuit filed and those who let it slide should be responsible, including compensation for those held beyond their sentence / early release. Yes it's easy to say and there are few champions for prisoners in our society. But it is how we fix these types of issues (i.e., petitioning for harm in court), regardless of the origin (software or otherwise).

Perhaps there should be more class-action lawsuits on behalf of convicted prisoners in general.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#304

Post by alex_young » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

Isn't this clearly defined false imprisonment under Arizona law?

Here's the relevant statute:

13-1303. Unlawful imprisonment; classification; definition

A. A person commits unlawful imprisonment by knowingly restraining another person.

B. In any prosecution for unlawful imprisonment, it is a defense that:

1. The restraint was accomplished by a peace officer or detention officer acting in good faith in the lawful performance of his duty; or

2. The defendant is a relative of the person restrained and the defendant's sole intent is to assume lawful custody of that person and the restraint was accomplished without physical injury.

C. Unlawful imprisonment is a class 6 felony unless the victim is released voluntarily by the defendant without physical injury in a safe place before arrest in which case it is a class 1 misdemeanor.

D. For the purposes of this section, "detention officer" means a person other than an elected official who is employed by a county, city or town and who is responsible for the supervision, protection, care, custody or control of inmates in a county or municipal correctional institution. Detention officer does not include counselors or secretarial, clerical or professionally trained personnel.

https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/01303.htm

Assumption being that a detention officer is not acting in good faith if they have a list of people who should no longer be detained under state law.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#305

Post by atoav » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 9:50 PM UTC

I think it is time for programmers to go to jail, when something like this happens. Just like in civil engineering when the bridge you built collapses and kills people.

I am a programmer myself. The shit you can get away with by claiming a software error is ridiculous and quite frankly dangerous. A bureacracies dream is being able to blame every bad outcome on a software error. We all know software errors are like a higher force, divine intervention, natural catastrophes — nothing can be done about them.

It is time we start taking our profession seriously, own our mistakes and collectively raise the stakes foe our errors.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#306

Post by EsotericAlgo » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

whack wrote: post #228

frompdx wrote: post #20

This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…

The following is very illuminating: > Instead of fixing the bug, department sources said employees are attempting to identify qualifying inmates manually... But sources say the department isn’t even scratching the surface of the entire number of eligible inmates. “The only prisoners that are getting into programming are the squeaky wheels,” a source said, “the ones who already know they qualify or people who have fam…

While not universally true, a manual process does typically require a process to fix mistakes. This is true of software as well but the perceived lack of errors in software processes often leads to this being ignore resulting in the aforementioned “bureaucratic violence”. I do think automated solutions are inherently better because of the bias reasons you call out but it cuts both ways and removes interpretation from processes that may not respect nuance.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#307

Post by frompdx » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 9:55 PM UTC

panic wrote: post #284

frompdx wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an excellent observation about the process of bureaucratization in action. For some reason the solution to the failings of bureaucracy ends up being even more bureaucracy and even greater consequences for failing to play by the rules of the bureaucracy. Is bureaucracy like violence? If it isn't working you aren't using enough of it?

Yeah, it's tempting to imagine that all the problems in the world can be solved in the same kind of way, whether through more bureaucracy or more violence. Another example is the libertarian idea that all problems can be solved through the application of market forces. Maybe the general term for this is solutionism -- the idea that problems have "solutions" which take certain standard forms, when really these problem…

Solutionism seems like an apt term. In addition, solutionists may feel bound to their ideology and unable to see problems caused by their solutions for what they are leading the types of feedback loops you describe. People double down on their beliefs when presented with opposing viewpoints or even contrary evidence all of the time. Interesting observation.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#308

Post by dang » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

tantalor wrote: post #6

This isn't a "bug". The problem is the software was not designed to do this and needs to be updated to support a change in requirements Bugs are when software does something it isn't supposed to, or doesn't do something it is supposed to. In this case, it's doing exactly what it was intended to do when it was implemented and put into service. Since then things have changed, so the vendor needs to implement the featur…

OK, we've taken the bug out of the title above. It allows the whistleblowers to squeeze in, which is nice.

It might be good to have a non-terminological discussion now. Though this subthread isn't too bad.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#309

Post by vinger » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 9:59 PM UTC

underwater wrote: post #270

Aerroon wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not hold the people accountable that deployed the tool? Ultimately the tool helps a human do the job. It doesn't do anything on its own. If a contractor shows up to do repairs in your house, but their hammer is faulty and the head flies through your window you don't talk to the hammer manufacturer. You talk to the contractor. It's the contractor's job to deal with wherever they got the hammer from. If software de…

Would you blame the people who paid for the bridge for the collapse? Should they have understood the details and flagged where corners were cut. When it comes to critical system I think it's fair to say that the engineers who build it are the only ones who can fully understand the risk. This is the point behind accreditation. It forces the supplier to maintain a minimum bar for services to protect the reputation of t…

In real life the engineers don't police themselves.

Before a bridge, house or even patio deck with a foundation is used a safety inspector needs to give approval.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#310

Post by oconnor663 » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 9:59 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #251

whack wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The following is very illuminating: > Instead of fixing the bug, department sources said employees are attempting to identify qualifying inmates manually... But sources say the department isn’t even scratching the surface of the entire number of eligible inmates. “The only prisoners that are getting into programming are the squeaky wheels,” a source said, “the ones who already know they qualify or people who have fam…

The "right" bureaucratic system isn't one with humans doing calculations (which we're bad at); nor is it one where computers on their own make decisions (which they're bad/inflexible at.) Instead, it's one where computers do calculations but don't make decisions; and then humans look at those calculations and have a final say (and responsibility!) over inputting a decision into the computer in response to the calcula…

I think "human in loop" designs are a good idea at a high level, but a big practical problem you run into when you try to build them is that the humans tend to become dependent on the computers. For example, you could say this is what happened when the self-driving Uber test vehicle killed a pedestrian in 2018. Complacency and (if it's a full-time job) boredom become major challenges in these designs.