Live data from Hacker News

Activists who embrace nuclear power

newyorker.com

301–310 of 598 posts

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#301

I'm sick of every single thread on nuclear turning into a flame war of wind/solar vs nuclear. It really detracts from the real issue of high carbon sources -- why is the conversation never about nuclear vs the natural gas plants that are being built at an astoundingly fast rate? Those two things are even more similar since they are both baseline power sources.

I’m guessing that is because nuclear is often framed as a solution to the climate disaster. If the discussion was simply: “see how cool of a technology nuclear power is; see how nuclear powers the latest mars rover” I would not guess there would be a lot of backlash. However in this thread you see a lot of: “wind and solar has some problems too” , or “nuclear waste is better then the warming of the planet” . The prob…

Nuclear is the largest source of emission-free electricity in the US and it’s the only one that can be built at scale.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? Nuclear is an existing solution to climate change, though. More existing than wind and solar. It provides more electricity in the US than wind and solar combined. The problem of climate change would already have been worse without it. So it already is part of the solution. It doesn’t have to be and isn’t the entire solution. But no activist calling for the end of nuclear electricity is doing any favors to climat…

Nuclear was largely built 50 years ago. Our technological capacities have shifted vastly since then. Also, the nuclear industry is completely unwilling to reuse those same designs, and regulators don't want that either. So the nuclear from 1970 may still be operating, and operating somewhat cheaply, but that doesn't mean that nuclear as a technology still matches the technological productive capacity of our economy.…

China alone is building 12 reactors alone and if the US isn’t going to get their act together and stops with that renewables-for-all non-sense, China will be the dominating world power.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they include the value of land. In Texas, for example, land cost for PV might be a couple percent of the cost of a PV field.

Does that assume current land values? Presumably land values go up as the demand for PV-suitable land increases?

Why should land values go up? The fraction of land needed for PV vs. the available land is very small.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? Nuclear is an existing solution to climate change, though. More existing than wind and solar. It provides more electricity in the US than wind and solar combined. The problem of climate change would already have been worse without it. So it already is part of the solution. It doesn’t have to be and isn’t the entire solution. But no activist calling for the end of nuclear electricity is doing any favors to climat…

I always took it as: As the nuclear plants from the 70s and 80s are getting decommissioned because of age, there is no plan to replace them with new nuclear. So they should be replace them with wind and solar, because wind and solar is a cheaper, quicker, and more reliable alternative then new nuclear (as this tread demonstrates). I don’t see the debate as existing nuclear vs. new wind and solar, but as new nuclear v…

Wind and solar need backup power plants and therefore *CANNOT* replace nuclear power plants.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#305

When she first contemplated working at Diablo Canyon, she imagined the rat-infested Springfield Nuclear Power Plant on “The Simpsons,” where green liquid oozes out of tanks. Eventually, like Hoff, she changed her thinking. “What we were doing actually aligned with my environmental values,” she told me. “That was shocking to me.” You can tell from my username what an enormous fan of The Simpsons I am. One of the few t…

Department of Energy’s take on the Simpsons:

> https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/7-things-simpsons-got-wro...

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It's no longer cost competitive If you compare apples to oranges it is not. Once you start to compare apples to apples it is very competitive. What do I mean by this? People like to compare nuclear to wind or solar. There is a fundamental difference. Wind or solar is not controlled by the energy demand while a nuclear power plat's energy production is. This is why you cannot compare them. If you talk about solar o…

It's straightforward accounting to address the issue you mean. Go read Lazard's levelized cost of energy slides. The cost comparison isn't some sort of mystery everyone but you is getting wrong.

Thanks, it just confirming what I thought. Solar is in the same bracket as nuclear. The difference is pretty small. Adding the energy density to the mix makes it obvious which one is a better option.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are plenty of sites that would happily accept more nuclear being built, but all other forms of energy have undercut the cost of nuclear. Honestly ... it isn't just about cost. Nuclear is expensive but it isn't prohibitively expensive. The big picture is we know that nuclear can power an economy, it does not emit global warming gasses, and also places a tiny footprint on the surrounding ecosystem. Solar and win…

It’s disingenuous to factor in mining requirement for solar panels but not uranium. Sure the supply chain to support the infrastructure required for 10 billion people is a lot on the environment, and we certainly could do a lot better. But these include better recycling of existing minerals (this includes solar panels), better forest management, better land use for food production, more careful road design that doesn…

>It’s disingenuous to factor in mining requirement for solar panels but not uranium.

It would be if it wasn't for the fact that nuclear power is incredibly energy dense so mining requirements for Uranium or Thorium or whatever iteration of nuclear we have, are not even in the same universe as what we will need to scale solar and wind.

> But these include better recycling of existing minerals (this includes solar panels)

I don't know what to say to that. Solar panels are not recyclable. Neither are wind mills. Both are high-tech devices. They may never be recyclable. Also recycling, especially recycling of high-tech devices, is not free as it tends to be incredibly energy intensive. In most situations it's more efficient to just bury the darn thing.

>better forest management, better land use for food production, more careful road design that doesn’t fragment the wildlife, etc. A

The problem is that by going with solar and wind you're compounding all these problems, and the general problem of ecosystem collapse.

>Given the timescale we have to react to and reverse the climate crisis the best technology that we have right now is wind and solar.

That's not true. It's where the mindshare inertia is (notice the deployment of wind and solar is pathetically low on a global scale), but if we truly internalized the danger of not just global warming but environmental collapse, we could pivot on a dime and we could expand our nuclear infrastructure probably in around two decades (we already lost 50 years by the way). It's like what happened with this pandemic. It takes a decade or more to roll out a new vaccine, unless a global pandemic shuts down the global economy and kills millions of people. Under those constrains, it turns out you can develop a vaccine in a year, and take another year to roll it out.

The other aspect is that there are no technical or engineering barriers to nuclear deployment. It's solely regulations and cost (though not prohibitively impossible costs. I'm willing to concede that nuclear is more expensive than things like natural gas). Wind and solar, on the other hand, still have unsolved technical challenges. You can't will those into existence.

But again, we haven't really internalized the dangerous of global warming and ecosystem collapse, so we're dicking around with wind and solar because it feels right.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear was largely built 50 years ago. Our technological capacities have shifted vastly since then. Also, the nuclear industry is completely unwilling to reuse those same designs, and regulators don't want that either. So the nuclear from 1970 may still be operating, and operating somewhat cheaply, but that doesn't mean that nuclear as a technology still matches the technological productive capacity of our economy.…

China alone is building 12 reactors alone and if the US isn’t going to get their act together and stops with that renewables-for-all non-sense, China will be the dominating world power.

This competitive mentality of who gets to be the dominating world superpower is beneficial to no-one.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are plenty of sites that would happily accept more nuclear being built, but all other forms of energy have undercut the cost of nuclear. Honestly ... it isn't just about cost. Nuclear is expensive but it isn't prohibitively expensive. The big picture is we know that nuclear can power an economy, it does not emit global warming gasses, and also places a tiny footprint on the surrounding ecosystem. Solar and win…

It’s disingenuous to factor in mining requirement for solar panels but not uranium. Sure the supply chain to support the infrastructure required for 10 billion people is a lot on the environment, and we certainly could do a lot better. But these include better recycling of existing minerals (this includes solar panels), better forest management, better land use for food production, more careful road design that doesn…

Nuclear fuel is several orders of magnitude more energy dense than solar or wind, so the amount of fuel required is shockingly low, especially compared to how many resources all those panels and windmills require to build and transport.

> How much land solar and wind farms use seems kind of minuscule next to all these efforts. And given how urgent the climate disaster is, complaining about land use from solar farms seems like a distraction.

No, it's part of the equation for picking energy sources. Solar and wind both work better in some areas than others, and none of the equipment maintains itself. The 100 acre solar farm you build instead of a 1 acre Nuclear plant is going to have its' own environmental and maintenance challenges. It's not clear why it is a priority to limit roads through wildlife, but not apply the same principles to energy policy.

> Given the timescale we have to react to and reverse the climate crisis the best technology that we have right now is wind and solar.

What are you basing this on? Nuclear technology is being held back by regulation and economics, not by engineering or technology.

Re: Activists who embrace nuclear power

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be of the same opinion, but I gotta say that Fukushima really did have an impact on me (on the long-run, it didn't have an immediate impact). But I have been wondering, if an incredibly advanced nation such as Japan faces very serious issues with their nuclear power-plants, is it really the right choice? Can we really guarantee that nothing goes seriously wrong, ever? Cause that's the standard those plants…

Fukushima happened after the biggest Earthquake in over 1000 years of recorded Japanese history hit at the right spot to produce an enormous flood wave at the reactor. I'd be careful to draw conclusion from such an outlier.

It's been years so I can't recall the name or find a source, but I recall reading at the time that there was in fact an engineer working on Fukushima's design that loudly protested that the sea wall and related preparations were inadequate based on historical records. Basically that they planned for the 100 year event but should have planned for the 1000 year event. It also wouldn't have been a huge cost burden. Putting the gensets on piers would have prevented the worst of it.
Post reply on HN