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Apple watch keyboard developer put off by app store scammers

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Re: Apple watch keyboard developer put off by app store scammers

#301

Post by Jenda_ »

bredren wrote: post #246
valuearb wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It tests every app, including this one. Think about what really happened here. Edit: Apparently my downvoters can’t think about what really happened here so I’ll explain it. In App Review this app worked fine. Oh, the keyboard was likely lame and not useful, but the scam screens were no where to be seen. Then the app is approved and placed on the store. Now the scam screens appear. It’s trivial to do, is done all the…

I wonder if it is trivially hard to detect or not. For example, if the app reviewer’s touch interaction with an app were recorded and the resulting screens diffed with the same pattern after publishing, there should be no changes. This is a method used as part of some UI testing with selenium. There could be apps this does not work for, such as when content changes or conversion type UI is shown. But I imagine there…

> For example, if the app reviewer’s touch interaction with an app were recorded and the resulting screens diffed with the same pattern after publishing, there should be no changes.

There are lots of valid reasons for apps to change based on outside events (location, time, online content). For example apps displaying weather forecast or current news.

Re: Apple watch keyboard developer put off by app store scammers

#302

Post by arp242 »

perryizgr8 wrote: post #83
arp242 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they don't take reasonable action on complaints, then yes, of course. Why do you think YouTube etc. are so trigger-happy with DMCA complaints? Exactly to avoid these kind of liability issues.

DMCA is a special case for copyright infringement. I don't think such obligations are there for most other scammy activities.

The obligation is to take reasonable steps to ensure that a platform isn't used for illegal activities. This isn't something you can 100% exclude, of course, and what "reasonable steps" are differ per platform, but in the case of an app store "take action against malicious scam apps when notified of their existence" seems quite reasonable to me.

The only difference is that copyright/DMCA has a huge industry pursuing this, and there is no one with deep pockets and free time pursuing this.

Re: Apple watch keyboard developer put off by app store scammers

#303

Post by valuearb »

mtnGoat wrote: post #287
valuearb wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple doesn’t benefit from scam apps, the 30% doesn’t remotely make up for the brand damage. And in this case it’s unlikely the scammers are making more than a few hundred a month.

they do in fact financially benefit from any scam transaction that is not reversed, at the rate of 30%. a profit/benefit is exactly that, regardless of size. just because it's not a major line item does not give us excuse to ignore it. brand damage, hard to prove. are any of these people leaving the walled garden entirely? if not, there was no damage to the brand and apple profited 30%.

The only reason Apple spends huge sums on app review is because they believe it’s important to maintaining brand value. Do you think they believe so without any substantial marketing research?

Re: Apple watch keyboard developer put off by app store scammers

#304

Post by perryizgr8 »

arp242 wrote: post #302
perryizgr8 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DMCA is a special case for copyright infringement. I don't think such obligations are there for most other scammy activities.

The obligation is to take reasonable steps to ensure that a platform isn't used for illegal activities. This isn't something you can 100% exclude, of course, and what "reasonable steps" are differ per platform, but in the case of an app store "take action against malicious scam apps when notified of their existence" seems quite reasonable to me. The only difference is that copyright/DMCA has a huge industry pursuing…

> The obligation is to take reasonable steps to ensure that a platform isn't used for illegal activities.

No, I do not think there is such a general obligation. DMCA is an exception for copyright infringement where the platform is obligated to act pre-emptively. Otherwise Apple is free to wait for a court order before removing anything.

Re: Apple watch keyboard developer put off by app store scammers

#305

Post by valuearb »

stevehawk wrote: post #293
valuearb wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The app was working, during review. Then once approved its behavior changed and the scam started. This is trivial to implement and done by many developers.

Apple doesn't approve each release of an app?

They do, but in these cases the binary never changed. A value returned to it from a web API changed, or a date passed, or the users are outside of Cupertino, etc.

Re: Apple watch keyboard developer put off by app store scammers

#306

Post by nine_k »

pjc50 wrote: post #40
yarcob wrote: post #5

Oh my god, they don't even bother implementing the app any more... It reminds me of my first App Store experience. I made an app that was somewhat successful (about 2000€ a month, enough to pay for a students living expenses). Within short time, a chinese speaking developer cloned it. They copied the icon (slighlty different color), they copied the UI, they even copied all the text in the dialog boxes. They released…

Fortunately making an app that does the same thing as an existing app isn't copyright infringement - that would be far worse than the Amazon "one click" patent, as there would only be one company allowed to make a web browser, word processor, spreadsheet, etc.

There is an idea of "business dress", which can also be protected.

That is, you can make a drink that tastes like Coca-Cola, but you should not sell a drink in bottles shaped like Coca-Cola's, with a red label, and imitating the longhand of the name. That is, you should not make something excessively similar to an existing established thing in order to trick customers into buying your thing instead of the established thing.

Re: Apple watch keyboard developer put off by app store scammers

#307

Post by bhawker »

valuearb wrote: post #149
paxys wrote: post #47

It's funny that these scam apps and fake reviews can exist in the app store en masse, while everyone on forums like this one will praise Apple for every heavy-handed decision against legitimate apps (which coincidentally were all in Apple's own interests) because hey the walled garden keeps us safe.

App Review is hard. Apple does a better job at it than Google, so imagine what is happening on the play store.

Is this something we just keep repeating, believing it to be true despite examples like this?

Re: Apple watch keyboard developer put off by app store scammers

#308

Post by exikyut »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #119
exikyut wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, how do you handle the "source-available" scenario? Also... I just realized... in the same way the article OP mentioned they were ahead of everyone else wrt features/implementation etc, I wonder if the scammers are ahead of the game in terms of preternaturally staying under the App/Play Store radars? Like, specifically, exactly what might they be doing, I wonder?

I just publish it on GH, without a distribution license[0]. These folks are experts. They probably know exactly what terminology to use, which screens to optimize, etc. Just because they are scammers, doesn't mean they are stupid. They could probably actually make legit money, giving classes on the Apple App Store process. [0] https://github.com/RiftValleySoftware/ambiamara

Huh, interesting. I was imagining GH would be the worst place to put code considering the existence of immoral vacuum cleaners, but the platform is such a firehose, and the apps you're publishing sufficiently domain-specific, that it seems to work. Interesting.

And yeah, wow, the scammers could give classes... with the only irony that the once out of the "game", as it were, an individual ex-player's info will literally become outdated within 30 seconds :/ - or at least that's the impression I get.

Re: Apple watch keyboard developer put off by app store scammers

#309

Post by bryanrasmussen »

nanidin wrote: post #242
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, that is doing it for good, the morally compromised part is that the DMCA is a solution created to allow big content owners to shut down whoever they want without any culpability. Most often things are morally neutral, and can be used for good or bad, some things are morally bad and it is difficult to use them for morally good things, and some things are morally good and it is difficult to use for morally bad. Bu…

The DMCA was created to allow websites like Youtube to exist without existential threat from rights holders due to users uploading content that they do not hold the rights to. Your view is Stallman-esque, but the world is not so clear cut in terms of good/evil. At best, I would say the abuse of the DMCA by large entities is an unintended consequence of the existence of the DMCA, and it could be patched up by lawmaker…

>I would say the abuse of the DMCA by large entities is an unintended consequence of the existence of the DMCA, and it could be patched up by lawmakers if there weren't already a remedy for DMCA requests made in bad faith.

that's sort of a nonsensical statement - it would mean that abuse cannot be patched up if there is a remedy. But how does abuse happen if there is a remedy? Surely the remedy is not very good if it does not stop abuse? But abuse cannot be stopped because there is a remedy.

That's some catch there, that catch-22.

At any rate given that I said most things were neutral and only some things were bad or good I don't know that I am very Stallman-esque - or is it just because I, as many other people, have identified one particular thing as being bad that Stallman also identified as bad. Geez, I don't wanna be like that guy - I guess I should change my viewpoint.

Then again, maybe I'm just John Doe-ish, assuming your average John Doe when told about the abuses of the DMCA thinks - whoa, that's messed up! I wonder why the lawmakers don't do anything to fix it, I bet there's some non-working remedy that prevents it!

Re: Apple watch keyboard developer put off by app store scammers

#310

Post by DE929E58 »

foepys wrote: post #6

I think it's time for freelance developers to behave like companies. Write big tech support once, wait a week and if the issue isn't solved, contact a lawyer and let them handle it. Otherwise you will be eternally bouncing around customer support departments until you write a tweet in the hope of getting noticed by somebody afraid of a PR disaster.

You are either very important or very naive. I was not paid once $8000. As somebody from another country no lawyer company would even reply your email. Took the loss and moved on.

Even with my company I would think long and hard if anything is worth pursuing. The extra time loss required and cost means I would approach legal action in the US only if the amount is huge.

I assume freelance developers are even less willing to deal with this bullshit.

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