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About Google's approach to research publication – Jeff Dean

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Re: About Google's approach to research publication – Jeff Dean

#301

This topic, over the past couple of days, seems to me to have become fraught, polarised and argued to distraction and faction. It's not a stretch to say that the world has a problem with discrimination, or that big personalities can rock the boat when they go against the grain. Or that corporates have interests to defend. I'd like in this case, though - not to say that all the other factors aren't worthy of examinati…

it's absurd to want to wave away stuff like "race/gender politics" when the impact of that "politics" is overwhelmingly obvious in the field.

Sorry for not being clear. My only point is that I would like to see the research paper. I respect acknowledged and qualified domain expertise. It's an education for people like me, non-academics and not domain experts (but working with some ML/AI stuff). I want to see the thoughts and discoveries and recommendations and cautions and all that - from people who know their stuff.

The rest, to me, is a distraction. This specialist/academic, has a really good rep. I care not about character or friendliness or whatever. As a brain, this person is documented as having the chops. I want to see the report.

Re: About Google's approach to research publication – Jeff Dean

#302
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AIUI, they asked her to retract it because she submitted it before getting final approval, and then they in fact decided not to approve it.

Dean's statement is clear that it was approved before being submitted: > Unfortunately, this particular paper was only shared with a day’s notice before its deadline — we require two weeks for this sort of review — and then instead of awaiting reviewer feedback, it was approved for submission and submitted. A cross functional team then reviewed the paper as part of our regular process and the authors were informed th…

I see what you mean.

I wonder if he is trying to say that there was a process error, it was approved without review (in error), she sent it out, and then they came back to her and said "wait, no, you can't publish that after all"

Re: About Google's approach to research publication – Jeff Dean

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but my best guess is that she was just let go without cause. Your employer can fire you at any time and technically doesn't need a reason. Typically, "terminated with cause" is a specific thing where they fire you and give a specific reason (e.g. stealing) that might have bearing on whether you receive unemployment benefits, accrued vacation, etc. It's hard to imagine that they fired her in that way and that s…

There were causes. The email to the women group and the demands. The paper wasn't so great either, based on the analysis of the abstract.

Firing for cause would be something of a “nuclear option” here and IMO would significantly increase the risk of a court battle. The peanuts Google would save in severance costs would not be worth the PR damage.

Re: About Google's approach to research publication – Jeff Dean

#304
It's standard practice to check in with stakeholders before submitting a paper.

The important issue in the paper seems to be that the paper villainized large language models, which Google has a vested interest in.

The paper was likely publishable with a bit more context in the introduction.

I've been in similar situations and they were handled offline.

The explosiveness of this situation seems to have been prepared the history of Timnit's relationship with Google.

This incident was just the spark.

Re: About Google's approach to research publication – Jeff Dean

#305
post #136
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, put more simply, they pushed out someone in their Ethical AI department because they did not soften critiques against AI enough. They couch these in terms of rigour, but the substance of the problem has to do with her criticisms against AI. Ultimately it makes the whole Ethical AI department look more like a rubber stamp for Google.

Let's be even more clear - they pushed out someone in their Ethical AI department because she wanted to have human conversations to determine the basis for being asked to soften critiques. It's one thing for reviewers, even anonymous reviewers, to reject a paper on its merits; it's another, in Timnit's own words [0], to be told "'it has been decided'" through "a privileged and confidential document to HR" despite cle…

Also from Gebru's memo ([0] in the parent comment):

>And you are told after a while, that your manager can read you a privileged and confidential document

Emphasis mine. Showing your employee that you don't even trust her with a written copy of the rejection of her paper is not a great way to engender a good working relationship. Note that this pretty clearly seems to have happened before Gebru sent the email that Dean characterized as an ultimatum.

Re: About Google's approach to research publication – Jeff Dean

#306
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have identified a similarity between two situations, but it is not a similarity that matters. The distinction that matters is one of normativity, and on that measure there is clearly no equivalence to be drawn here.

every time it is the same - somebody got the power to enforce the prevalent ideology of the time and place, they happily do it under the premise that it is the most right and good ideology, and because of being such visibly pious followers and strict enforcers these self-declared occupants of high moral ground start to feel and behave themselves as more entitled and better than others. They highjack the cause and fra…

You are right that there have been many iterations of normative standards, but that does not imply that all situations, ideologies, positions and so on are equally correct. It does not mean that we should stop trying to do better, nor that we have made no progress made through these efforts toward a better world.

Re: About Google's approach to research publication – Jeff Dean

#307
post #2

Maybe different teams are different, but on my previous team within Google AI, we thought the goal of google's pubapproval process was to ensure that internal company IP (eg. details about datasets, details about google compute infra) does not leak to the public, and maybe to shield Google from liability. Nothing more. In all of my time at Google AI, I never heard of pubapproval being used for peer review or to criti…

At least when I was there, my papers were getting thoroughly reviewed and often had to make some adjustments before getting approval. Never occurred to me to make any demands from the reviewers or threaten to resign if my paper doesn't get immediately and unconditionally approved. Seems like she's asking for preferential treatment.

Re: About Google's approach to research publication – Jeff Dean

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is completely normal to have to obtain prepublication signoff on material before it is submitted to a conference (and manager signoff even before abstract submission) To be clear, both of these had been received for the paper in question.

That isn't the impression I had from reading the principal's statements, to wit: > Unfortunately, this particular paper was only shared with a day’s notice before its deadline — we require two weeks for this sort of review — and then instead of awaiting reviewer feedback, it was approved for submission and submitted. It seems like someone short-circuited the review process and submitted without review to meet a deadl…

Jeff's statement is a lie. I work at Google, and the publication approval process doesn't normally take to weeks. Any Google employee can verify this, and others have, both in this thread and on twitter. There's some documentation that asks for 2 weeks, but it's not followed, and inconsistent application of policy is absolutely a concern in a case like this.

A summary of the events, as best as I can tell, is the normal presubmission review was done. After the paper was approved and submitted, someone, whether this was upper management or some other entity, did some additional review and required that the authors withdraw (?, but retract is the wrong term) the paper.

From what I know, both firsthand and from other sources[0], while not spotless, the issues with the paper were mostly nitpicks and fairly straightforward to resolve. That they weren't even provided until some escalation from Dr. Gebru is strange. That even after they were, sort of, provided, she and her team were not given the option to address them in the paper, is extraordinarily strange.

[0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/k69eq0/n_t...

Re: About Google's approach to research publication – Jeff Dean

#309
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seemed absurd to submit a paper for internal academic review one day prior to a major deadline I think that there isn't internal academic review of the sort implied by Jeff at Google. Timnit seems pretty clearly in the right here. As an AI researcher at a competitor, this impacts my desire to join Google in the future. I imagine these sort of PR disasters hurt their standing in the academic labor market.

> I think that there isn't internal academic review of the sort implied by Jeff at Google. Why do you think that?

I'm interested to know too. Because although I treat my ML work professionally, I haven't worked at a large AI lab. So I had no idea whether academic review was common inside DeepMind/OpenAI/Facebook AI, or whether researchers generally did their own thing -- i.e. that the researcher and their co-authors are the main judges of their own academic integrity.

And in hindsight, it seems dumb to think it'd be any other way. Of course the researchers are their own judge. That's what the reviewers are for! You submit your paper for academic review at a journal, and the reviewers are in charge of reviewing.

Would you really want to mess with that dynamic if you're a big company? It's been a tried-and-true way to do science for more than a century. It's also a recipe for failing at science, as many will attest. But being allowed to fail at science is a key aspect of science. It would be terrible if we only published papers that were completely correct in every detail, because it means everyone is playing it safe rather than pushing the boundaries. The most interesting work is usually on the frontier of some new idea.

When the news broke, I didn't give it a second thought. "Oh, Jeff is saying that there's an academic review process. Yeah, obviously DeepMind would have something like that. And what's this -- she sent the paper one day before the journal deadline? That's almost giving them the middle finger. Yeah, pretty clear-cut firing."

... But when you think back on it, none of that adds up. Researchers are paid to do research. Being hamstrung by some manager insisting that you namedrop every relevant paper from the last decade would certainly be rigorous, but not necessarily productive. Sure, you can argue that maybe she should have talked about X or Y. But you could also write your own paper.

I'll admit, I didn't think highly of her. All I knew was that she liked to stir up drama. Why won't she just keep quiet and do her job like everyone else? Yet now it seems like she was doing her job. And if I ask myself how I'd react in that situation -- some middle manager is forcing a bogus new "review" process, and now they're demanding us to retract a paper that we put several months of work into, for reasons other than "You're revealing Google's IP," then my thoughts would be: (a) where were you during the two months I've been writing this and asking for feedback? (b) what are you trying to accomplish here, and is this really how a world-class institution treats the process?

Every company is different. And at Google scale, different teams are different. But now it's looking pretty bad. They certainly had grounds to fire her, and for many folks perhaps that's enough, but as a researcher I'm thinking "Why did Google try so hard to retract her paper anyway?" They keep dancing around that. And the article certainly doesn't address it:

Our aim is to rival peer-reviewed journals in terms of the rigor and thoughtfulness in how we review research before publication.

Why? That's the point of publishing! Do reviewers just say "Oh this is from Google" and click the "approve" button? Maybe, but the whole point is for people to read a paper and decide for themselves whether it's mistaken. This whole "keep it under the rug until it's polished perfectly for six months for no reason other than prestige" is... well, rather a grim-sounding idea.

Outsiders can't know what insiders know. But we can picture various things based on the information we're getting. And this reads like some manager tried to double down, and she called him on it each time. After four or five doublings, now it's headline news and Google is looking like they went nuclear without some very solid reasons.

Re: About Google's approach to research publication – Jeff Dean

#310

After reading Jeff Dean's response, I can only come to the conclusion that Timnit Gebru acted like a primadonna. It is completely normal to have to obtain prepublication signoff on material before it is submitted to a conference (and manager signoff even before abstract submission). Given the breadth of experience at Google, it seems strange not to avail yourself of this. Demanding to know the identity of reviewers i…

I think, given the top comment on this post, your comment is far too credulous about Google's incentives being aligned with scientific rigor alone.
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