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Billionaires Build

paulgraham.com

301–310 of 957 posts

Re: Billionaires Build

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an amazing nugget which should be the context for any controversial discussion about "Billionaires". I have utmost respect for the former category, but I also believe that the later category should not exist (as in those people should exist but they should not have any unearned billions and all the unearned power and privileges that come with it).

You don’t believe that if someone makes billions they should be able to pass it on to their children?

The existence of compound interest and exponential growth mean wealth inequality will become more and more extreme over time as generational wealth accumulates.

History teaches us that extreme inequality and class resentment leads to societal collapse. First there is civil unrest, then revolution. We have seen the beginning of some serious civil unrest this year.

From a purely self-interested point of view, if you value living in a peaceful and stable society, you ought to be concerned about wealth inequality. Generational wealth is one of the major factors here.

Re: Billionaires Build

#302
post #235

This essay uses a weak straw-man: the only way to become a billionaire is by exploiting people I think the "principle of charity" or "steel-man" criticism of billionaires isn't that every single billionaire is directly exploiting people. It would be closer to something like this: The problem is that our society has feedback loops that make it hard to escape poverty, and feedback loops that let the wealthy amass more…

Your entire comment, minus your opening statement, contradicts your opening statement; and supports the theory that people mistakenly claim that the only way to become billionaire (or millionaires for that matter) is by exploring people.

Lol yes. He says billionaires don't exploit people. Then explains how billionaires exploit people. And then struggles to morally justify billionaires exploiting people.

Re: Billionaires Build

#303
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither category should exist. The fact billionaires exist is an indictment against our system and how we allocate resources.

Who would allocate resources better?

The Chinese government is a horrible, authoritarian nightmare, but still somehow does better at managing the country's resources than the American ruling class. The pandemic, now over in China, while our nurses tape garbage bags to themselves as thousands die daily, has proven that definitively.

Re: Billionaires Build

#304
post #235

This essay uses a weak straw-man: the only way to become a billionaire is by exploiting people I think the "principle of charity" or "steel-man" criticism of billionaires isn't that every single billionaire is directly exploiting people. It would be closer to something like this: The problem is that our society has feedback loops that make it hard to escape poverty, and feedback loops that let the wealthy amass more…

it's not a weak straw man. There are people who say this: https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/aoc-accuses-...

It's a real argument, depending on where you stand.

To become a billionaire, one must be able to amass 10 thousand times more wealth than the median household in the US. To reach the lofty heights of Bill Gates et al. one must amass ~ 1 million times more wealth than the median US household.

The reason why some believe that to be a billionaire is exploitative is that they believe this 4-6 order of magnitude disparity in wealth is inherently exploitative. You could always imagine a society where the warehouse workers were paid double ( or even quadruple ) for the effort they perform and a 100 billionaire would simply be a 100 millionaire.

Regardless of where you draw the line for the discrepancy to be considered exploitative. The line exists somewhere for everyone. Tsar Nicholas had the equivalent of ~1.3 trillion in today's dollars in wealth prior to the revolution, and I can't imagine the US supporting anyone with amassing more than 10-20 trillion dollars in wealth.

Carnegie et. al. each managed to earn up to ~300 billion in today's dollars prior to the anti-trust act.

Re: Billionaires Build

#305
Well, of course billionaires don't directly exploit people. They just build systems and take advantage of large scale features of the social environment that exploit people.

It's a completely different morally.

I mean, you can't hold airbnb responsible for either the housing crunch or any part of the homelessness crisis. They just created a system that allows landlords to cash in on high-return short term rentals. The negative externalities created by the mass adoption of their platform cannot be landed on their moral accounting. It's totally obvious.

Re: Billionaires Build

#306
It's clear to me from pg's latest essays is that he is no longer living in the future. There's a generational divide that's growing between younger founders and how they see technology with the first golden generation of tech - the Apple, Microsoft, Web 1.0/2.0 type of inventors and business people. Because there is no way you can show this essay to a younger founder and not have it feel out of touch.

Re: Billionaires Build

#307
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a straw man, it is an extremely common belief and it deserves to be addressed and debunked. My social media is stuffed to the brim with people posting exactly this sentiment. It is true that there are other, more reasonable beliefs.

I don't disagree, but can you please not create accounts for every few comments you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . You needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for other users to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a differen…

How did you know? From the username?

Re: Billionaires Build

#308
post #235

This essay uses a weak straw-man: the only way to become a billionaire is by exploiting people I think the "principle of charity" or "steel-man" criticism of billionaires isn't that every single billionaire is directly exploiting people. It would be closer to something like this: The problem is that our society has feedback loops that make it hard to escape poverty, and feedback loops that let the wealthy amass more…

I don’t know who Graham is talking about—“politicians”?—but this is a very famous claim, or corollary, from Marx: capitalists exploit workers. Why? Because of the labor theory of value. (1) All value is created from labor. (2) Capitalists employ workers in order to extract surplus value from them (what’s the point of employing them if you don’t get more out of your “investment” than you pay it?). (3) Ergo capitalists exploit workers.

Of course millionaires and billionaires can still _work_ themselves in the sense given above, i.e. in a way that creates value. And one could argue that one can be a self-made (no exploitation of others) millionaire. But it becomes farcical to claim that a person can become a billionaire without exploiting people. Any person on Earth would need much more than one lifetime to create a Billion USD worth of value _through their own labor alone_.

Re: Billionaires Build

#309
[Yes, I, too, am going to focus on the billionaire part; I'm not going to be applying to YC for anything anytime soon. I don't need to know how to navigate their interviews.]

I would like to make a minor note: the thing that politicians sometimes say is, "that the only way to become a billionaire is by exploiting people". Not "setting out to exploit people", not by trying to be Snidely Whiplash the professional mustache twirler. The statement is about effects, not intentions.

Henry Ford started out building cars, not controlling people's lives. But that's kind of what he ended up doing (https://jalopnik.com/when-henry-fords-benevolent-secret-poli...). Andrew Carnegie wanted to make steel but also got the Homestead Strike (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_strike) (involving the Pinkerton Agency mentioned the other day).

But look at some of the names mentioned in the article:

* Apple started to make computers and related gear, and did so very successfully. On the other hand, it might be reasonable to see Steve Wozniak as exploited, not to mention the other early employees. And then there was that Foxconn thing....

* Mark Zuckerberg did indeed want to "engage online with his college friends". He did not start out wanting to dick around with democracy as we know it.

* Larry and Sergey certainly wanted to search the Internet. But then they bought DoubleClick, one of the most loathed companies on said Internet, and turned it into one of the world's largest cash cows, primarily using their ability to collect information on everyone, everywhere.

* AirBnB absolutely, positively did not set out to violate hospitality laws and do weird things to real estate worldwide.

* Paul Graham, of course, got started by selling Viaweb for $49 million of Yahoo stock. Viaweb had 21 employees at that time (https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/business/company-news-yah... anyone know how the other 18 people made out? And that leads me to YC itself, which gives money to start-ups in exchange for...something, and which helps introduce start-ups to other investors. Which has never, ever, in the history of the world resulted in exploitative relationships. (I'm being sarcastic. It's not hard to find companies whose founders have been forced out by investors, much less other kinds of interference.)

Which is why Paul's argument about billionaires is a strawman. I firmly believe him when he writes, "[Working because there's nothing else they'd rather do], not exploiting people, is the defining quality of people who become billionaires from starting companies." And I believe that "Y Combinator certainly sees founders whose m.o. is to exploit people." They exist, and I believe YC rejects them. But none of that has anything to do with the path from there to billionaire-hood. There is a billion decisions between founding and billionaire-osity, and some of them, historically, involve stepping on someone.

Because Paul doesn't seem to want to acknowledge that, I get worried when he writes about "I think they start from the feeling that it's wrong that one person could have so much more money than another. It's understandable where that feeling comes from. ... The mistake they make is to jump from feeling bad that some people are much richer than others to the conclusion that there's no legitimate way to make a very large amount of money." Money is power, but I suspect Paul would be less happy (publicly) making that statement with the substitution. (And of course there's legitimate ways to make large amounts of money; the powerful define what is legitimate.)

This is getting too long, so I'll just end it with some snark:

Here is a very American statement: "There are certainly some people who become rich by doing bad things. But there are also plenty of people who behave badly and don't make that much from it. There is no correlation — in fact, probably an inverse correlation — between how badly you behave and how much money you make." Yes, right up there with "I'm a temporarily distressed billionaire myself": money is correlated with morality.

"Can you imagine a better way to destroy social mobility than by telling poor kids that the way to get rich is by exploiting people, while the rich kids know, from having watched the preceding generation do it, how it's really done?" -- I'd imagine poor kids already know about exploiting people. They just don't have the contacts to do it correctly.

Re: Billionaires Build

#310
post #169

> But aptitude for exploiting people is not what Y Combinator looks for at all. In fact, it's the opposite of what they look for. I'll tell you what they do look for, by explaining how to convince Y Combinator to fund you, and you can see for yourself. I mean, of course. Y Combinator is looking first and foremost for people who will make them billions in the aggregate. Most of those people who pass the interview will…

> Most of those people who pass the interview will personally fail to join the billionaire club.

And YC will not make much money from those people. They will lose money on a lot of them.

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