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Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

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Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#301

Post by benrbray »

forest_dweller wrote: post #296
benrbray wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It only seems to be rich white people in the US seem to care about it I do think there is a kernel of truth to what you're saying, but I don't think it's right to dismiss entirely the fact that representation IS important. Historically, "rich white people" have been in control of the media, so it's great to see this group becoming more self aware. Sure, from time to time there is some overcorrection, but eventually…

> I do think there is a kernel of truth to what you're saying, but I don't think it's right to dismiss entirely the fact that representation IS important. This idea is insidious. Firstly people have to remember fiction is fiction. The reason why the first few seasons of Game of Thrones was compelling was because the world they lived in didn't have any modern sensibilities in it. The more they threw in modern sensibil…

Look, I think there's room for nuance. I agree with most of the specific examples you pointed out, and generally agree that big blockbuster films / network television shows are trash, for more reasons than just the recent diversity push. I 100% agree that token black / token gay characters are problematic.

My idea of representation is: Let people with interesting stories tell their stories. Modern audiences don't really care if the protagonist looks like them, so let's push for interesting stories rather than a specific character archetype. Invite writers of all backgrounds to the table, and allow their experiences to shape the story.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#302

Post by bigbubba »

chongli wrote: post #132
Lev1a wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because games are supposed to be fun [...] I'm gonna have to disagree with you here and reiterate a point from a "Co-optional Podcast" episode from years ago: Games don't _have to be_ "FUN", they have to be "compelling" / "engaging". The thought that games can only be fun is a relic from video games's infancy stage much the same as once upon a time when films/movies were new and there were only short slapstick flic…

That’s a great point. If someone panned Schindler’s List because it doesn’t include Larry, Moe, or Curly, we’d rightfully tell the person to revisit their ground-level assumptions about what makes for good cinema. The fact that we still have this problem in video games really points to their immaturity as a medium.

I think the problem is the term 'game.' If you made 'The Schindler's List VR Experience' that would be reasonable, but if the same software was called 'The Schindler's List Video Game', that would sound crass and disrespectful. Games, computerized or not, are generally understood to be for amusement (maybe unless you're talking to mathematicians.)

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#303

Post by dragonwriter »

gwd wrote: post #201
throwaway894345 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In light of the parent comment, we should presume that the team had Christian representation and those Christians were fine with it, not that there were no Christians. There’s a lot of media that uses caricatures to vilify Christians (“Easy A” comes to mind), but there is relatively little uproar from Christians about it. They don’t seem to be very sensitive apart from a small handful that our society cherry-picks as…

Let's try your formulation in a different context and see if it works. Imagine someone saying this in the '50s: > There's a lot of media that uses caricatures to vilify [Blacks], but there is relatively little uproar from [Blacks] about it. They don't seem to be very sensitive apart from a small handful... I assure you, Christians are aware of how poorly they're portrayed by the media, and aren't happy about it. It s…

> I assure you, Christians are aware of how poorly they're portrayed by the media, and aren't happy about it

I assure you that Christians are not, as a rule, unfavorably portrayed in the media, and many Christians are excessively tired of those members of the single most favored, and socially and politically powerful, subset of America's dominant religion pretending to be persecuted whenever they experience the slightest criticism or restriction in imposing their ideology on others.

> It seems to me that this is one of many factors that led many Christians to support Trump.

Probably not significantly; it's more likely the reason that white evangelical protestants overwhelmingly supported Trump and white Catholics and white non-evangelical protestants also did so, though less overwhelmingly (whereas Hispanic Catholics supported, and Black evangelical protestants overwhelmingly supported, Biden) is that white Christians consistently have more to do with the correlation between views on race and religious affiliation. It's perhaps telling that the share of White Evangelical Protestant (78%) and, White non-evangelical Protestants (52%), and White Catholics (53%) that supported Trump (in an October survey, [0]) are very similar to the share of each (72%, 56%, and 53%, respectively, in an August survey [1]) that believed “police killings of Black men are isolated incidents”.

[0] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/13/white-chris...

[1] https://www.prri.org/research/racial-justice-2020-george-flo...

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#304

Post by JimTheMan »

frazbin wrote: post #230

This is a pretty high effort article, let's take a deep breath. I enjoyed it because it uses Assassin's Creed as a lense to teach us a bit about history. No culture war related baggage is required for admission into this article IMO; the narrative compromises necessary to make a playable game out of a 9th century setting are kind of hilarious, and this article helped me process the cognitive dissonance that comes fro…

Red dead redemption II made the looting part feel a bit more real, albeit painstakingly slow.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#305

Post by stjohnswarts »

FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #299
kop316 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully, I think you got most of it right, but incorrect on a big nuance when you said: "A fantasy world can be based on real history as we know it (consider, for example, the Nordic theme in World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King, or the Norsca and Warriors of Chaos in Total War: Warhammer II). If it is then inaccurate, we're OK with that, we see it as artistic freedom. This game tries to base itself directl…

Indeed, even back in the day, the arc from Warcraft 1 to Warcraft 3 was noticeable. In Warcraft 1 the humans were good Christian knights, healed by clerics, and the Orcs were evil devil-worshippers. By Warcraft 3 the Orcs followed an aboriginal religion and the humans were setting up concentration camps.

Sounds like warcraft 3 became more realistic towards humans then. Not much can be said about orc as there's really nothing to reference it to.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#306

Post by forest_dweller »

benrbray wrote: post #301
forest_dweller wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do think there is a kernel of truth to what you're saying, but I don't think it's right to dismiss entirely the fact that representation IS important. This idea is insidious. Firstly people have to remember fiction is fiction. The reason why the first few seasons of Game of Thrones was compelling was because the world they lived in didn't have any modern sensibilities in it. The more they threw in modern sensibil…

Look, I think there's room for nuance. I agree with most of the specific examples you pointed out, and generally agree that big blockbuster films / network television shows are trash, for more reasons than just the recent diversity push. I 100% agree that token black / token gay characters are problematic. My idea of representation is: Let people with interesting stories tell their stories. Modern audiences don't rea…

How about we just do stuff based on merit rather that picking people based on arbitrary characteristics? If there are these great stories to tell then they should do well.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#307

Post by forest_dweller »

BlueTemplar wrote: post #289
forest_dweller wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are loads of games with characters from every corner of the planet as playable characters. Why do people always pretend they don't exist? Just having a cursory look over my collection on steam: * Streets of Rage had black, white, asian, men and women. * Street Fighter had every nationality on earth represented. * Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. Almost all the characters were black. * Grand Theft Auto V - One of…

> nobody cares about this shit in Europe btw because our identities are based on our nationality This seems to be changing : in France young Muslims are now placing Sharia above the secular law : https://www.marianne.net/societe/laicite-et-religions/des-fr... Note that the USA (and European Union, and of course the Muslim countries) are blamed for the dissemination of this dominant communitarian model.

It is an unfortunate export from the US that seems to have made it way over the pond.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#308

Post by COGlory »

orwin wrote: post #8
Ar-Curunir wrote: post #4

There’s lots of evidence of trade with African and MiddleEastern merchants in Viking-age Scandinavia; it’s totally plausible that some of these merchants ended up there

Not only that, but there is evidence of genetic exchange taking place around the 9th century between scandinavia/England and Malian kingdoms (i know it was not the Malian kingdom at that time). Probably slave trade tbh.

Do you have a source for this? Id be curious to read it

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#309

Post by goatinaboat »

Shish2k wrote: post #188
goatinaboat wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vikings invade England, pillage and massacre the English, yet they are still seen as the good guys. It's curious that what is now Britain has been invaded and its people enslaved many times over the centuries but no modern day British person harbours any resentment for it towards present day Italians, Scandinavians, French, Moroccans...

We were never taught that we were invaded by those nations - history lessons talk about “Romans”, “Saxons”, and “Normans”. None of those nations are around any more, so the obvious conclusion is that we must’ve “won”, probably by virtue of England being the strongest most pure-blooded nation, or something like that...

None of those nations are around any more, so the obvious conclusion is that we must’ve “won”, probably by virtue of England being the strongest most pure-blooded nation, or something like that...

You must have had a very different education than me then. We were taught that the Vikings we bought off, the Roman Empire collapsed for reasons unrelated to us, and the Normans stayed and intermingled with the population.

Nevertheless for a present day Brit to harbour resentment against a present day dweller in Rome because of galley slaves would be considered utterly absurd.

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